don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:
To bible believers: The emphasis I see in most bible professing groups is salvation. Salvation is just but a part, which became necessary though expected from the start, of the bigger project God intended when he fashioned man from the dust of the ground. God’s purpose still stands which is to make man in his image, according to his likeness.
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Non-bible believers may also comment.
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Mang Epi, Gen. 1:26 talks about God’s creation of man in His image and likeness. I have some questions:
1. When man and woman committed the sin, did they lose their “eternal life”? And if YES, this “eternal life” is on earth only, as there was no “death” yet for man (no sin has been committed)? For it is written:
Genesis 2:16-17
16 The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17 except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”
2. When Jesus Christ died and resurrected, He redeemed man of this sin. Since JC already saved us of Adam and Eve’s sin, why do we still have no “eternal life”?
EMA: don robert wrote:
Mang Epi, Gen. 1:26 talks about God’s creation of man in His image and likeness.
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Genesis 1:26 actually states the intention to make man in his image according to his likeness. Hence, the phrase “Let us make man”.
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don robert wrote:
I have some questions:
1. When man and woman committed the sin, did they lose their “eternal life”? And if YES, this “eternal life” is on earth only, as there was no “death” yet for man (no sin has been committed)? For it is written:
Genesis 2:16-17
16 The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17 except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”
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No. When they sinned, Adam and Eve did not lose eternal life as they didn’t have it yet at that point. One doesn’t lose what he doesn’t have.
What they lost is the opportunity to be given eternal life at that time which was available to them had they eaten of the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
I like your quoted version “you are surely doomed to die” because from the point when they sinned, their death as sin’s penalty was made a certainty. And they did die later.
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don robert wrote:
2. When Jesus Christ died and resurrected, He redeemed man of this sin. Since JC already saved us of Adam and Eve’s sin, why do we still have no “eternal life”?
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Jesus’ death is not automatically applied to man’s sins, not only those of Adam and Eve. Every man will die for his own sin as Adam and Eve died for theirs.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Jesus’ dying in man’s behalf practically excused man from dying for his sin. But the application for each man is not automatic. Mankind is to be saved by batch, so to speak, some in this age while others are in the ages to follow.
Jesus’ payment for a particular man’s sin is applied only when God grants that man repentance. It is not in man’s power to realize his sin and repent. It takes God’s power to make him realize and repent. Repentance is a favor that God grants.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:
Genesis 1:26 actually states the intention to make man in his image according to his likeness. Hence, the phrase, “Let us make man”.
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Mang Epi, I just want to say if I have the same understanding with you.
On the “make man in our image”, man was created in the physical image of God, right?
Gen. 1:27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
And on “likeness”: man’s similarity with God was in terms on “dominion” over the rest of creation.
Gen. 1:26:
Then God said: “Let us… after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
So, image and likeness pointed to two thing, right Mang Epi?
EMA: We have a little difference in understanding, don.
While the physical and mortal phase was accomplished in Adam and Eve and in our make up today, the spiritual phase is yet to be done.
Those who will come short of the quality standard of the master potter will be “discarded”. Those who do, when God sees the quality he looks for, will be changed from his physical make up to spirit. Man’s change to spirit culminates the creation process.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This is that time John looks forward to in saying “we shall be like Him” (God).
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
don robert: Mang Epi, let’s break the monotony here in PRMO for a while.
Kindly elaborate the process on how will man “evolve” (will be changed, you said) from physical to spirit. Your quoted verses, although mentions your points (ex. change, be like Him), does not seem to support the “evolution” you are speaking.
And I wonder why the word “shall” was frequently used. “Shall” implies uncertainty.
EMA: don robert wrote:
Mang Epi, let’s break the monotony here in PRMO for a while.
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You were not “entertained” don?
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don robert wrote:
Kindly elaborate the process on how will man “evolve” (will be changed, you said) from physical to spirit. Your quoted verses, although mentions your points (ex. change, be like Him), does not seem to support the “evolution” you are speaking.
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The spiritual creation process does not involve the physical make up of man which was already completed. He does not evolve from physical to spirit. The person imbued with God’s Holy Spirit still grows physically old or gets afflicted with diseases and he dies. It is the character in the man that God expects to gradually change from being selfish to selfless, from being self centered to God centered.
When a person receives the Holy Spirit of God, there indwells in him that power to make him aware of how to choose the way of God and to tread that way in trying situations. While God’s spirit tells him to do good his old self, his “old man”, prods him to do the opposite.
At first the babe in Christ stumbles as a physical babe does in his walk. He needs guidance of the elders and being fed with spiritual milk, the bible teachings, to be able to do away with his former ungodly conduct.
1 Peter 2:1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
A Christian matures in godly character when he consistently follows the lead of Christ’s spirit dwelling in him with the objective of reaching that level where he can confidently say that he has crucified his old man (self) and that it is already Christ who lives in him.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me…
If he struggles and endures and consistently overcomes the tests up to the end of his physical life or that he is still alive at Christ’s return, he will be changed, not slowly as in evolution, but quickly, abruptly – “in the twinkling of an eye” – from being physical to spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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don robert wrote:
And I wonder why the word “shall” was frequently used. “Shall” implies uncertainty.
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Instead of uncertainty, “shall” signifies certainty. Even in the human legal usage, “shall” connotes assurance or something mandatory.
don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:
The spiritual creation process does not involve the physical make up of man which was already completed. He does not evolve from physical to spirit. The person imbued with God’s Holy Spirit still grows physically old or gets afflicted with diseases and he dies. It is the character in the man that God expects to gradually change from being selfish to selfless, from being self centered to God centered.
When a person receives the Holy Spirit of God, there indwells in him that power to make him aware of how to choose the way of God and to tread that way in trying situations. While God’s spirit tells him to do good his old self, his “old man”, prods him to do the opposite.
At first the babe in Christ stumbles as a physical babe does in his walk. He needs guidance of the elders and being fed with spiritual milk, the bible teachings, to be able to do away with his former ungodly conduct.
1 Peter 2:1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
A Christian matures in godly character when he consistently follows the lead of Christ’s spirit dwelling in him with the objective of reaching that level where he can confidently say that he has crucified his old man (self) and that it is already Christ who lives in him.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;
If he struggles and endures and consistently overcomes the tests up to the end of his physical life or that he is still alive at Christ’s return, he will be changed, not slowly as in evolution, but quickly, abruptly – “in the twinkling of an eye” – from being physical to spirit.
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Mang Epi, you seem to be delving into a more complex scenario as you go on. To simplify some more (for my own benefit only, actually), as you understand it, kindly define the following: physical body, spirit and soul, in relation to man as a whole. A man (imo) has a body and a soul, but he has no spirit until he receives Christ in him. I am not sure if we are the same on this.
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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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This passage reek of apocalytic scenario (I tell you a mystery). Did not Paul wrongly expect that some of his contemporaries might still be alive during Christ’s return? And there it is again, the word “shall”.
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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:
Instead of uncertainty, “shall” signifies certainty. Even in the human legal usage, “shall” connotes assurance or something mandatory.
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If “certainty” is the objective, “will” or “must” will have to be used. “Shall” connotes something that may or may not happen (uncertainty). Like I posted on another forum, when McArthur said… I SHALL return, that time he was not sure he will really return (as Bataan was bombarded in abandon). He correctly said “shall” due to the “uncertainty” of his return. Otherwise, he would have said… I WILL return (to show resolve).
This “shall” has some relations with the Corinthians passage you quoted above. Paul used “shall” for he himself may have not been sure of his apocalyptic scenario.
EMA: don robert wrote:
Mang Epi, you seem to be delving into a more complex scenario as you go on. To simplify some more (for my own benefit only, actually), as you understand it, kindly define the following: physical body, spirit and soul, in relation to man as a whole. A man (imo) has a body and a soul, but he has no spirit until he receives Christ in him. I am not sure if we are the same on this.
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We are not the same on this, don.
1. Physical body is our flesh, bones, blood, etc. which came from Adam and Eve who came from dust and which is to return to dust.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”
2. Soul (Hebrew nephesh) refers to the man himself. When God breathed into his nostrils after he was fashioned from the dust, Adam became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)
Many passages in Genesis use “nephesh” in referring to animals.
Contrary to common belief that it is something in man that is immortal, the soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.
3. “There is a spirit in man”, as Job says, which enables man to understand his being and surrounding.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.
This spirit in man, however, is not enough to understand the things of God. Man needs God’s Spirit for him to understand God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This is why a man needs the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which he receives by the laying on of hands after baptism. This indwelling of God’s spirit in him makes man a Christian. Otherwise, he is not Christ’s, “not his”.
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
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don robert wrote:
This passage (1 Corinthians 15:5) 1 reek of apocalytic scenario (I tell you a mystery). Did not Paul wrongly expect that some of his contemporaries might still be alive during Christ’s return? And there it is again, the word “shall”.
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Mystery is simply something not known until it is made known. And mystery can be made known like the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven which Christ makes known to his disciples but not to others.
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Paul thought Christ’s return would happen in his lifetime, understandably because God did not reveal this precise day and hour. Not even the angels know when Christ would return.
Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
But this does not mean that he is wrong in saying that Christ would return and that at that moment, the men who underwent the process of salvation in this age and have overcome shall be changed from physical to spirit.
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don robert wrote:
If “certainty” is the objective, “will” or “must” will have to be used. “Shall” connotes something that may or may not happen (uncertainty). Like I posted on another forum, when McArthur said… I SHALL return, that time he was not sure he will really return (as Bataan was bombarded in abandon). He correctly said “shall” due to the “uncertainty” of his return. Otherwise, he would have said… I WILL return (to show resolve).
This “shall” has some relations with the Corinthians passage you quoted above. Paul used “shall” for he himself may have not been sure of his apocalyptic scenario.
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We can differ in the understanding of “shall”.
I have already stated that in law, “shall” means it is mandatory. “Shall” is associated with commands.
Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’