shadow warrior: isn’t it that sin is transgression of the law?
Adam and Eve might have sinned from disobeying Yahweh’s command not to eat of the tree
of knowledge of good and evil,
but we didn’t!
Only they did!
How could we inherit their sin?
And how can you prove that the tree of life symbolizes the Holy Spirit?
EMA: shadow warrior wrote:
isn’t it that sin is transgression of the law?
Adam and Eve might have sinned from disobeying Yahweh’s command not to eat of the tree
of knowledge of good and evil,
but we didn’t!
Only they did!
How could we inherit their sin?
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Yes, sin is also defined as the transgression of the law. (KJV 1 John 3:4)
Adam and Eve’s descendants did not “inherit” their sin. Everyone dies for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Having been denied access to the tree of life for rejecting God’s rule, Adam and Eve caused their descendants to live apart from God where they sinned likewise.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
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shadow warrior wrote:
And how can you prove that the tree of life symbolizes the Holy Spirit?
——————————–
Had they eaten of the tree life, Adam and Eve would have acquired that attitude to avoid sin and to always follow God’s will in everything they do. They could have been imbued with that which could make them “live forever”.
Genesis 3:22…And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
When a person receives the Holy Spirit, that person will have a new frame of mind which is to want to be subject to God’s will and he has received the guarantee of eternal life.
2 Corinthians 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
shadow warrior: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:
Having been denied access to the tree of life for rejecting God’s rule, Adam and Eve caused their descendants to live apart from God where they sinned likewise. ——————————.
The tree of life,
why didn’t Adam and Eve’s creator didn’t give them that important thing right away,
why does it have to be done in stages.
They are weak, as proved, why not just imbed in them that capability to avoid sin and live eternally right when they were created?
You know, to avoid what happened.
EMA: When God showed Adam the trees in the Garden, the tree of life was not excluded.
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
It was only the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which was specifically excluded.
Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,
God gave man that freedom of choice and he risked the wrong choice, as what happened, if only to give man that full freedom.
But God had “plan B”, the salvation process, which has since been on course.
shadow warrior: ok, let’s take away satan from the equation-
Adam and Eve were created,
they would have eaten from the tree of life (since there’s no one to tempt them about the other fruit),
so they would be eternal-
and the possibility of them sinning still exists,
because they still have the freedom of choice!
EMA: I see no problem in the existence of the possibility of Adam and Eve sinning. Having the freedom of choice doesn’t necessarily mean a person would choose to sin. The person can choose not to sin. And with God’s power imbued in them from their eating of the tree of life, Adam and Eve could have chosen not to sin in all situations.
At that point in which they were yet to multiply their physical kind, they would have to remain as such physical beings. It is not shown when God would have finally changed Adam and Eve from their being physical to spirit.
The man who attains the culmination of God’s creation process is one who has been changed from his physical mortal existence to immortal spirit. And this changed to spirit man would be like God who chooses and has the power to not sin.
dd44: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:
When God showed Adam the trees in the Garden, the tree of life was not excluded.
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
It was only the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which was specifically excluded.
Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,
God gave man that freedom of choice and he risked the wrong choice, as what happened, if only to give man that full freedom.
But God had “plan B”, the salvation process, which has since been on course.
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This is where you lose me. As a lawyer I assume you’re logical. Before eating the fruit none of their actions are evil, even if god supposedly told them not to eat of the fruit. How are they to know that that is good or evil? Before eating the fruit all of their actions are neither good nor evil.
EMA: Your conclusion “Before eating the fruit all of their actions are neither good nor evil” is incorrect. At that point in their lives, the book of Genesis shows that only one law – a penal law – was in force. And this is for Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
All of their actions before they broke the law were good. You have to distinguish the doing of an act from knowing as to whether the act is good or evil.
dd44: Again your logic is circular. Without eating the fruit of good and evil how are they supposed to know what is good or evil? But that is expected of you…. Ah basta!!!!!
EMA: If I “lose” you, using your word, it is because you fail to distinguish between the doing of an act and the discernment by the actor on whether his act was good or evil. Is it difficult?
dd44: Are you saying that before eating the fruit of good and evil, adam and eve already know what good and evil is?
EMA: No, what I’m saying is the opposite. Adam and Eve were still “too young” at that point to know. There is a time, as a person matures, when he acquires discernment on whether what he does is good or evil.
It can be read in Genesis that the serpent showed them the short cut for Adam and Eve to acquire that discernment by eating from the forbidden tree.
Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
dd44: It can also be read that genesis is logically flawed. In my profession, I use a data type called a boolean, it can have two values, true or false. In some languages a boolean is automatically defaulted to false, the compiler initializes it for you, the reason being that even though a boolean can technically have only 2 values, there is a 3rd value which is a null value which can mess up your logic. A null is neither a true nor a false, it simply means there is no value in that memory address that you define as boolean. Had the fiction writer of genesis been aware of this fact he would have realized aside from good or evil, there is a 3rd value which is null. In programming, it is best practice to initialize your variables, because if you don’t, bugs are likely to appear. Example, lets say x is a variable of type boolean that is not initialized. When you query is X true, you’ll get an answer of false; but when you query is X false, you’ll also get an answer of false. In light of this it, would seem that your god, if he exists is an incompetent programmer.
EMA: Now, you are talking in a language foreign to me. I’m sure my youngest son who is IT trained can engage with you but not me. You must be very good in your profession.
But I don’t think logic is needed to see the distinction between doing an act and knowing or discerning as to whether an act is good or evil.
shadow warrior: What is the real purpose of that tree then?
Why was it there?
dd44: Imagine a toddler in a room, then imagine a parent putting dynamite in a room just like those acme dynamites from the coyote and roadrunner cartoons of the looney toons. Thats how loving the Judeo-Christian god is.
EMA: The forbidden tree was used to teach a lesson on submission to authority.
Sin was already committed before they ate of the forbidden fruit. The point when sin was committed by Eve and Adam was when each made the decision to disobey God’s prohibition.
marcus: teach?
but when the two fairly “young” subjects failed, they were punished?
eh wala pa ngang concept of evil and good di ba?
alam ba nilang its BAD to do what they are not supposed to do?
EMA: The lesson is not only for Adam and Eve. Those who are called to undergo the process of salvation in this age will likewise choose in every trying situation they’ll be confronted with – to be subject to God or not.
The prohibition not to eat of the forbidden tree was the first lesson for Adam and Eve on the “concept of evil and good”. Yes, they were told that if they go against the prohibition, they will die for sure.
But the first death is not really that dreadful as a consequence for sin when Christ was raised back to life after his death. It is the second death which is the point of no return.
marcus: but they still dont know that going against the prohibition is good or bad, right?
EMA: If what you mean by “still dont know” is the maturity level to grasp the concept of good and evil, yes, Adam and Eve were not yet there.
But knowing good and evil is not a prerequisite for Adam and Eve to start learning life’s lessons starting with following the instruction not to eat from the forbidden tree.