Jesus is the God in the Old Testament

http://forum.philboxing.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=188321&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Another name of YHWH, I AM, in the OT is Jesus in the NT

I AM is God’s name introduced to the children of Israel in Moses’ day.

Exodus 3:13-14 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'”

Jesus told the Jews of his day he was the I AM even before Abraham.

John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus Christ came to reveal God the Father

The Jews, part of the descendants of Israel, didn’t know the Father as did their ascendants. Jesus came to reveal the Father to whom Jesus wills to be revealed to.

Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

The knowledge of God the Father of those to whom Jesus reveals who the Father is limited. The Holy Spirit indwelt person is still physical and incapable of withstanding and surviving the Father’s presence. Even Jesus Christ at this time in his full glory would blind and burn physical man.

Revelation 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

When man will already be changed to spirit, God the Father will already be fully revealed to him. Man will be a spirit like God and able to see God who is Spirit.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

FORUM

(Taken out from the thread “The Ten Commandments are not for Christians!” posting.php?mode=quote&f=20&p=4314537 )

jafra: don’t you think that’s kind of odd God the father made his rules then his son Jesus made his own? aren’t you cherry picking here?

EMA: No. If you think YHWH is God the Father, you’re wrong. The Father does not deal directly with man. Not yet. YHWH is the same being who became Jesus Christ.

jafra: Can u pls. quote a bible verse that supports ur contention?

EMA: Yes, Jesus is the YHWH of the Old Testament and not the being Jesus revealed to his disciples as the Father.

jafra: Show me a verse that supports your contention ka epi. ‘coz some bible scholars belive yahweh and elohim are used interchangeably. Yahweh when it refers to a God who relates to people and Elohim when refering to God the maker but i haven’t come across suggesting Yahweh and Jesus is the same. Care to clarify?

pan_ni_pakyaw: From my understanding Yahweh, Jehova or Elohim are the names referred to the God the father.

EMA: YHWH, I AM, JEHOVA, LORD God, was heard and seen in the OT. But no one has heard nor seen the Father except Jesus Christ only.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 5:37 “And the Father Himself, who sent Me [Jesus], has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.”

John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He [Jesus] who is from God; He has seen the Father.”

pilyo2bay: How about abraham? just curious with this verse, has he seen god?

Abraham Pleads for Sodom
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

20 Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Abraham has three visitors during that time and two men left and went to sodom and gomorah and the other one stayed with abraham whom i assumed he constantly talking with when he pleads to save the people of sodom and gomorah. is he god that abraham talking with?

EMA: Abraham saw the LORD, the being who became Jesus Christ.

Genesis 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.

DIGITUSDEI: therefore there are two jesus’s.

1. jesus the yhwh of the old testament, and
2. the other being, the jesus that revealed to the disciples.
?

EMA: The YHWH and the Jesus Christians know refer to one and the same God being. Only Christians, the Holy Spirit indwelt persons described as Christ’s, know Jesus.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

In another sense, your conclusion, “therefore there are two jesus’s”, is correct. There are the real Jesus and the fake Jesus Paul refers to as “another Jesus” the apostles “have not preached”.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

zorro05: Ka Epie, the subject can be viewed in different perspective,
using the Bible as reference/proof, to substantiate a concurrence,
but also, views/opinions on the contrary, again using the
Bible as source.

EMA: My posts will be to prove the thread title. Discussing with students of the bible who think otherwise would be a good bible study exercise.

jafra: That’s what Jesus said in the New Testament. Strangely, the New Testament clearly states the name Jesus but in the old testament, Jesus was never mentioned . It sounds more like the authors of the new testament read the old testament, revised it and made their own version as a less violent one. I don’t think anybody would have known Jesus without reading the New Testament.
Genesis 17:1 proved Abraham has seen and spoke to God contrary to the verse you posted above. Would you say Abraham is Jesus too?

EMA: jafra wrote:

That’s what Jesus said in the New Testament. Strangely, the New Testament clearly states the name Jesus but in the old testament, Jesus was never mentioned . It sounds more like the authors of the new testament read the old testament, revised it and made their own version as a less violent one. I don’t think anybody would have known Jesus without reading the New Testament.
Genesis 17:1 proved Abraham has seen and spoke to God contrary to the verse you posted above.

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Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

The God being who created, dealt and interacted with man in the OT, as expressed in the thread title, is the same being known in the NT as Logos, Lamb, Jesus Christ.

The LORD who told Abram, as Abraham was known then, that he was “Almighty God” is the same being Christians know as Jesus Christ.

John 5:37 “And the Father Himself, who sent Me [Jesus], has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.”

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jafra wrote:

Would you say Abraham is Jesus too?

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No.

jafra: I don’t think any Jew would agree with you on this. One thing I don’t understand why God would change his name to Jesus in the New Testament. You’re not a catholic I assume you disagree witht he holy trinity doctrine that they stand behind and now your version of God in other form is Logos, Lamb and Jesus? and the Father himself who sent me ( Jesus) who’s the Father? Is that Father God or Jesus? Common Ka Epi, you’re making up stuff as you go along. it don’t make sense.

EMA: If Logos, “Word” in John 1:1, is strange to you, my posts will not really make sense to you.

jafra: I’ll take a look on that some other time,. Thanks Ka Epi.

kajo: Can you explain why YHWH is so vengeful, wrathful, cruel, etc while Jesus of the NT is as meek as a lamb?

EMA: The explanation is summed up in one word, purpose.

When man was kicked out from the Garden of Eden, he was cut off from his close relationship with God. Being under Satan’s control, every man who was born from Adam and Eve was prone to sin and each man did sin. Sin merits the penalty of death. Since all men sinned, all deserve to die.

As life giver, God has power and right to take it back. Because of sin, YHWH wiped out people and animals through the earth wide flood save Noah and his family. YHWH likewise killed the people of Sodom and Gomorrah because of sin. Etc.

From among the sinful people, God retained his prerogative to choose those he can work with. Those he chose to work with were surrounded by idolatry and who even practiced idolatry themselves. Being immersed in their beliefs of idols which were made of wood and stone, YHWH has to catch attention to point out who the real God is.

How he executed the death sentences of the sinners make people say “YHWH is so vengeful, wrathful, cruel, etc.”

Jesus’ becoming a man was for the purpose of dying for all men’s sins. He had to be humble to be able to allow himself to be abused by his own creation.

kajo: Uzzah was just trying to help.

When my 6 year old son breaks a glass because he was helping put away the dishes,
l don’t lay a hand on him,
nor even scold him.

EMA: The case with the Israelites is different. God was teaching strict obedience to his instructions. Uzzah violated the instruction not to touch the ark of God.

kajo: Cruel.
Uzzah could have just gotten a minor punishment,
like getting leprosy, or anything,
BUT to kill him on the spot seems over the top,
don’t you think?

EMA: Even David was angry with Uzzah’s punishment.

2 Samuel 6:8 And David became angry because of the LORD’s outbreak against Uzzah;

But again, God was to get the attention of the Israelites. The Israelites were clearly instructed with a warning as regards the handling of the ark. The ark represents God’s presence and it should be regarded with utmost respect.

Exodus 25:21 You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. 22 And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.

Only those of a select tribe were to carry the ark and they were instructed how it should be carried when transported to avoid them from touching it “lest they die”.

Numbers 4:15 And when Aaron and his sons have finished covering the sanctuary and all the furnishings of the sanctuary, when the camp is set to go, then the sons of Kohath shall come to carry them; but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die.
:20 But they shall not go in to watch while the holy things are being covered, lest they die.”

Apparently David overlooked or forgot God’s instruction. But ignorance is not an excuse. The prescribed penalty for a penal instruction has to be implemented. God had the Israelites’ attention after Uzzah’s death. For a while of course.

kajo: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

For a while of course.

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Means even the harshest of methods doesn’t work for them.

What does the Bible say re the cause of Uzzah’s demise,
was it caused by the Ark itself?
0r did it come directly from YHWH?

EMA: kajo wrote:

Means even the harshest of methods doesn’t work for them.

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This points to Christians that without God’s Holy Spirit working in a person, that person could not really obey God.

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kajo wrote:

What does the Bible say re the cause of Uzzah’s demise,
was it caused by the Ark itself?
0r did it come directly from YHWH?

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“God struck” Uzzah.

2 Samuel 6:7…and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

kajo: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

This points to Christians that without God’s Holy Spirit working in a person, that person could not really obey God.

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For sure God knows the hearts of men, right?
Why not use the Holy Spirit since the very start?

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

“God struck” Uzzah.

2 Samuel 6:7…and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

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can you cite another more detailed account?

EMA: kajo wrote:

For sure God knows the hearts of men, right?
Why not use the Holy Spirit since the very start?

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It was God’s intention to “use the Holy Spirit since the very start”. God offered the Holy Spirit which is symbolized by the fruit of the tree of life in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat…

But man refused and instead ate what was forbidden.

Genesis 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

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kajo wrote:

can you cite another more detailed account?

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2 Samuel 6:1 Again David gathered all the choice men of Israel, thirty thousand. 2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, whose name is called by the Name, the LORD of Hosts, who dwells between the cherubim. 3 So they set the ark of God on a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drove the new cart. 4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill, accompanying the ark of God; and Ahio went before the ark. 5 Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the LORD on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals.
6 And when they came to Nachon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. 7 Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

In reading the above account, one should not forget God’s strict instruction as to how the ark should not be touched lest the violator will die.

Icecream: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

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I guess all the jews who heard that went ballistic.

EMA: They sure did. They were bent on stoning Jesus to death.

John 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Icecream: Ka Epi I’m just wondering why the Jews were so stubborn that
they could not see the LIGHT in front of them as they were feeding them
like a baby and yet till today they are freakin nuts as ungrateful SOB.

EMA: Their hearts were hardened because of disobedience. Jesus labeled that generation “evil”.

Luke 11:29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation.

In the resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:11-13 when all who have lived and since died, those who were born in generations other than in Jesus’ day will condemn that generation of Jews who heard Christ and did not believe.

Luke 11:31 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

Icecream: Di ko magets Ka Epi. If their hearts were hardened because of disobedience,
does it makes them an evil? Ergo, if someone doesn’t believe in Christ, he is an evil?

EMA: The “evil” description is the totality of that generation’s sinful conduct as Jesus perceived it to be. Sin, or the breaking of God’s law, is evil in God’s sight.

Psalm 51:4 Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight…

Icecream: Jesus was the Word. I AM is the Word.
Ergo. I AM is Jesus.

sounds familiar to me.