The sincere bible believing person needs to definitely answer this question.  Paul declares that the fact of Christ’s death is of first importance:

1 Corinthians 15:3 (NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died…

The question is asked out of concern for the bible student who has been taught like the one who has this to say:

“It was the covering that died, his flesh, his physical weaknesses, and human thoughts.  But His divinity never dies, as a word of God; he never dies, for God do not die. He is the Alpha and Omega. If his Divinity died once then it will be end of everything, for nothing exist or ever live outside of God.”

This belief, taught for generations, needs to be corrected once for all.  

The Word became flesh

When the Word became flesh (John 1:14), he became so by shedding off his God nature.   

Philippians 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. (New King James Version)
Philippians 2:6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained. 7But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. (Amplified Bible)
Philippians 2:6 who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; 7but emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men. (Darby Translation)

What the Word lost was his God nature that cannot die. He emptied himself of that attribute.

The Word had to be made a little lower than angels so he could die because if he retains that God nature, he would not die.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

The word “became” should be understood as “turned into”.  What was previous is no longer what it is at present.   

Can the Word die?

Can the Word die? Not as a spirit being. But if he changes to flesh and sets aside his God nature which cannot die, he can die.

This is what happened to the Word (YHWH) who “became” flesh, note that occurrence, the spirit became flesh and not just the spirit being covered with flesh.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit

When the spirit Word became Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was just that, a powerless mortal needing the power of the Holy Spirit.  The Father gave him the Holy Spirit to indwell in him and even fill him with.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…

The Holy Spirit is the same power God gives to believers in the laying on of hands after baptism. Stephen was full of this power.

Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit…

The God-Man concept

I was asked this question: “Do you believe that Jesus is the God-MAN, meaning 100% God and 100% man at the same time when he become flesh?”

I answered no, I don’t believe this “God-Man” concept. It is either God or man. When the bible states that the spirit Word “became” flesh, it simply means that the being who was spirit ceased to be spirit and became flesh.

How can Jesus be 100% God when it is the very nature of being immortal which was removed in the lowering of the Word to that level in which he could die?

When the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, there was only one resultant being and not two, the mortal Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:18-19  

The question “did Christ really die?” comes up to those who believe that it was only the body that died and that Christ had a conscious spirit who did not die and who even preached to the spirits in prison during the period when his body was dead.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison…  

If one reads the verses carefully, he would notice that there is a sequence of two events:
1. “He was put to death in the flesh”; and
2. “but made alive by the Spirit”

Jesus, who is flesh, died and was unconscious. After some time being dead, Jesus was revived as spirit.

Let’s read some of the other bible versions of 1 Peter 3:18-19:  

1. The Message version – “He went through it all—was put to death and then made alive—to bring us to God.”
2. New Living Translation – “He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
3. Amplified Bible – “In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit”

What if the spirit Word merely entered the body of Jesus?

If the Word who was spirit remained as spirit and just escaped the body when Jesus died, then there will be a problem where there will be two spirits in the resurrected Jesus.

First is the one which merely entered the flesh and, second, the flesh which became spirit.

This is of first importance – Christ really died

Paul declares that the fact of Christ’s death is of first importance:

1 Corinthians 15:3 (NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died…

Otherwise, one’s belief would be in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:1 (NIV) Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

The problem, really, is understanding the changes which happened to the Word from spirit to flesh to spirit. The crucial word is “became”.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…

After the flesh died, this flesh was again changed back to spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45…The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.

This is the only case where one can really say that Jesus Christ died.

FORUM

(philboxing.com thread “To bible believers, did Christ Really Die?” http://forum.philboxing.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=112287&hilit=to+bible+believers+did+christ+really+die )

EMA: With the storm that visited PRMO having passed, I suppose, let’s get back to PRMO business.

With the object for bible believers to try to “synchronize” their bible understanding to “come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God” (Ephesians 4:13), let’s discuss Christ’s death.

My understanding is that when the Jesus Christ of the bible died, he really was dead and unconscious until the Father raised him back to life from the state of being dead.

Non-bible believers are, as always, welcome to also comment.

edmendoza001: exactly my belief as well Mang Epi.

EMA: So we’re in agreement that he really died.

What is your comment on the others’ belief that while the body died, Jesus’ “spirit” went somewhere else to preach to spirits in prison during the period when he was supposed to be dead?

Jesus rose again when the Father raised him back after 3 days.

edmendoza001: I’m not well versed Mang Eps pero is there any bible verse that would back up those claims?

Thanks

EMA: We’ll just wait for those who have that belief to show the basis or bases of their belief.

edmendoza001: copy that Sir!

equalizer: Of course he died.

But he rose again after 3 days did he?

equalizer: Opps, i’m sorry, i think i need to read morte about that.

pls. correct me if im wrong, all I know is that he preached in so many places before he raises himself up to heaven, nothing stated in the bible that he went somewhere else to preach to spirits in prison.

EMA: This is what they cite:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

rolando natagacavite: I read somewhere that it was a “stage manage” act. Kind of modern magician doing this days. “Space age” people are wondering how they(ancient peopel) build pyramids and other so almost structurely and architecturally perfect. The author hinted that there was science involved and an a deception(?) on the “dying and rising” scene. I’m just sharing it so pls. don’t accuse me of blasphemy. I’ll try to find the article again and post it here kung makikita ko.

Retz: Yup. I believe in it based on faith and as it is written in the Bible. 8)

But the veracity of it is another issue which will be questioned by non-believers.

EMA: You’re right, some would question Jesus’ death while others dismiss even his existence in the first place.

Metta: It is impossible to synchronize beliefs. Some people will simply not listen and they are already content with what they have. That is biblical and I believe you know it.

EMA: With your borrowed avatar, at first glance I thought you’re Tony.

With non-bible believers up to the point when they are called by God, I agree with your observation. But with the called out bible believers, synchronization is possible as this is what Paul hoped for.

Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

dd44: The question is, did he even existed to begin with. His MO is a copy of previous saviors. Mithras, Dionysus, Amen-Ra… etc.

EMA: My statement posted immediately before this post of yours is proven right.

dd44: Using your skills as a lawyer, can you convince me that Jesus did really exist?

EMA: No. I won’t even waste my time to a futile exercise.

dd44: So proving Jesus’ existence is a futile exercise?

EMA: Yes, to you. That is, as of this time.

dd44: I will believe you if you can produce credible evidence. Are you admitting that you don’t have any evidence (credible)?

EMA: Why should I produce evidence when I’m not even trying to convince you?

DuckPunch: What is your reaction to claims that the story of the virgin birth and even the 12 disciples exist in cultures that existed even before Jesus’s birth?

EMA: Which cultures in particular? Jesus’ birth was foretold by the biblical prophets long before the event was fulfilled.

Admerald: It was the covering that died, his flesh, his physical weaknesses, and human thoughts.

But His divinity never dies, as a word of God; he never dies, for God do not die. He is the Alpha and Omega. If his Divinity died once then it will be end of everything, for nothing exist or ever live outside of God.

EMA: With your view, the question you need to ponder Adme is, “can a God shed off his divinity?”

The bible answer is yes.

Admerald: EPI’s view has something to do with his definition of who or what God is.

EMA: I agree. But to be more specific, my view has something to do with Jesus’ nature from his human birth to his death. Was his nature still that of God?

My reading of the bible is that his nature was not that of God. He was human having shed off his God nature.

Admerald: DO you mean God make himself less God? Or God make himself “not God anymore”?

Then, there is one instance where God is not “all powerfull”, or a point in time where “God did not exist”? That is absurd!

Jesus is fully God when he was here on earth, he never lost His divinity. For God cannot make himself less powerful or not God anymore.

EMA: That’s what happened to the Word who became flesh. Aren’t you going to believe the Word had shed his God nature when he became flesh?

Admerald: When the word become flesh, he is still a Word. He never lost his attribute as word.

The word put on a fleshly covering to himself. But the Word is still alive in Him.

The Word is God, and God cannot make himself not God or less God. It will create a lot of absurdities.

When Jesus became flesh, does it mean God lost his Word? or His Word cease to exist? It is absurd!

EMA: What the Word lost was his God nature that cannot die. He emptied himself of that attribute.

When the Word became flesh (John 1:14), he became so by shedding off his God nature. This is what Paul said which is not absurd.

Philippians 2:6 (New King James Version) who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:6-7 (Amplified Bible) 6Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,

7But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

Admerald: Where it says that the Word lost his God nature? Don’t add anything in the Bible EPI.

The Word become flesh, it does not mean that the Word is no longer a Word. If it does, then God lost his Word! and it is absurd!

Philippians 2 actually supports the Orthodox positions that Jesus is always God. But he emptied himself, in humbleness he did not cling to to His devine attribute so that he will be put to death or else this will not happen. It doesn’t says he lost his divinity, else there is no need for him to empty his devine attributes if there were none since he is not God?

Jesus on earth accept Worship, and you can only worship God. If Jesus was not God at this point, then he should have corrected those who worship him.

EMA: Is “stripped” not enough? How about “emptied” in another translation?

Philippians 2:6-7 (Darby Translation)who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;

7but emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men;

The Word had to be made a little lower than angels so he could die because if he retains that God nature, he would not die.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Your statement, “The word put on a fleshly covering to himself” is what is adding to the bible Adme. You are saying that Jesus’ flesh is not Jesus himself but is merely a covering to the Jesus who is covered. In effect, you are saying that Jesus did not really die when he did.

Now this is absurd when you contradict the bible.

Admerald: yeah, he was made lower than angels, that is what we call human.

BUt not the Word himself, The Word is lower than angels? God himself is lower than angels?

Of course Not!

The Word become flesh, it is the flesh that is lower than the angels, not the word himself. Yahweh is not flesh, but Spirit. Jesus is Yahweh who become flesh. And Yawheh exist all the time in Jesus.

The point here is this, the Word of God does not ceased to exist. God never lost his Word, not even once. God exist all times, God never dies.

Jesus accept worship while he is on earth, why would he accept that if he is not God? Jesus forgive sins that only God can do.

Again, Philippinens 2 is about humility, as verse 1-5 says. then Paul take Jesus humility as example that Christians should follow.

Jesus, in his humility did not consider himself equal with God or cling to the attributes of God.

But made himself nothing, emptied himself, pure humbleness.

Now if Jesus was not God in the first place, Then Jesus do not need this humility as if He is God for he is not!

Again, your teachings that God make himself less God or “not God anymore” is absurd. God cannot do that! For God is all powerfull all the time. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. If he ceased to be God, then that will be the end of everything. For nothing ever live outside of God.

EMA: Before I respond point by point this post, let me ask this question: To you, Jesus Christ did not die?

Admerald: Jesus Christ is Yahweh in Flesh. Jesus Christ died, the flesh died, but not Yahweh for Yahweh cannot die.

Can Yahweh die?

Please answer my post above. Thanks

EMA: John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…

It is the Godly nature which cannot die which is being addressed. The Word had to be changed from spirit to flesh for the purpose of death.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death…

The next issue we need to look into Adme is when the spirit Word became flesh, which or who was that spirit in him?

My understanding is that when the spirit Word became Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was just that, a powerless mortal needing the power of the Holy Spirit and the Father had to give him the Holy Spirit to indwell in him and even fill him.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…

Admerald: What? YAHWEH can DIE?

That is absurd. Yahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die.

When Yahweh becomes flesh, he is still Yahweh, he is still the Word. He is still God.

That is the reason why Jesus forgives sin while he is on earth, why Jesus accept worships, because he is still Yahweh, God in flesh.

And when Jesus died, it is the Flesh that died, and not Yahweh, for Yahweh cannot die.

EMA: Admerald wrote:

yeah, he was made lower than angels, that is what we call human.

BUt not the Word himself,

————————————–

Your statements are contradicting each other Adme.

1st sentence- “he was made lower than angels” vs. 2nd sentence – “BUt not the Word himself”.

Clearly your 2nd sentence contradicts the bible itself. Jesus Christ is that being who had been made lower than the angels.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels…

Jesus is the flesh who was previously the Word.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…

————————————–

Admerald wrote:

The Word is lower than angels? God himself is lower than angels?

Of course Not!

————————————–

The Word and God himself are not lower than angels. But when God made the Word flesh, the Word’s nature was lowered.

————————————–

Admerald wrote:

The Word become flesh, it is the flesh that is lower than the angels, not the word himself. Yahweh is not flesh, but Spirit. Jesus is Yahweh who become flesh. And Yawheh exist all the time in Jesus.

————————————–

You are confused and confusing Adme.

Your statement “Jesus is Yahweh who become flesh” is biblical already.

Your statement “Yawheh exist all the time in Jesus” leads to misunderstanding. This leads one to think that YHWH is one being existing in another being Jesus Christ. Two beings in Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ is only the flesh and not the whole person.

The truth is YHWH or the Word became Jesus Christ stripped of his God nature. Having become a mortal, Jesus needed God’s power, the Holy Spirit. So God filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…

If your understanding be right that YHWH as a being existed in Jesus Christ who is another being, then there would have been no need for the Father to still fill Jesus with the Holy spirit.

————————————–

Admerald wrote:

The point here is this, the Word of God does not ceased to exist. God never lost his Word, not even once. God exist all times, God never dies.

————————————–

“God never dies” is correct. For this reason the Word was stripped of his God nature to be able to die.

————————————–

Admerald wrote:

Jesus accept worship while he is on earth, why would he accept that if he is not God? Jesus forgive sins that only God can do.

————————————–

Jesus is well aware of his previous God nature before he became flesh. As a human he was clothed with full authority by the Father.

————————————–

Admerald wrote:

Again, Philippinens 2 is about humility, as verse 1-5 says. then Paul take Jesus humility as example that Christians should follow.

Jesus, in his humility did not consider himself equal with God or cling to the attributes of God.

But made himself nothing, emptied himself, pure humbleness.

Now if Jesus was not God in the first place, Then Jesus do not need this humility as if He is God for he is not!

————————————–

Philippians 2 talks about Jesus’ humility which even reached that point where he has to submit to the power of death.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

He no longer had that God nature which made him subject to death.

————————————–

Admerald wrote:

Again, your teachings that God make himself less God or “not God anymore” is absurd. God cannot do that!

————————————–

You must be reading a book other than the bible Adme. The bible says that God made the Word, a God being, a little lower than angels for the purpose of death.

————————————–

Admerald wrote:

For God is all powerfull all the time. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. If he ceased to be God, then that will be the end of everything. For nothing ever live outside of God.

————————————–

It is you who is talking about God ceasing to be God.

God the Father never ceased to be God. But the Word did for a while until he was restored to his former glory through the resurrection from the state of being dead. This is why Jesus prayed to the Father to restore him to the former glory he previously had before he became flesh.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

EMA: No, it is you who is talking about God ceasing to be God.

You just admit “the Word did!”

The Word did what? God ceasing to be God.

that is what you are telling to us here EPI.

anyway, your theology is really faulty in many ways EPI, not only you are telling to us that God does not know everything, you are also telling to us that there are many Gods as if the Word is one count God + the Father as one count God. Which makes 2 Gods.

The Bible clearly says that there is only One GOD.

atsaka: YOu are misinterpreting Epi.

Admirald: tell me how I misinterpret EPI.

mexifan: Astro-theology would say the solar messiah did die as perceived in a very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th, or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun.

By December 22nd, the Sun’s demise was fully realized, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it’s lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for 3 days. During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation. And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again. It is the Sun’s transition period before it shifts its direction back into the Northern Hemisphere, bringing Spring, and thus salvation.

Did Jesus exist? is the real question.

EMA: And your view is?

mexifan: I don’t know. I’m still searching for answers.

EMA: At least you’re searching.

mexifan: I try to be objective in my search. Since I was raised Catholic I had to temporarily block my pre-conceived notions as I came across books of varied topics that question the validity of my faith and provide answers to some of my doubts. That is why until now I have failed to post my member belief profile. Right now, I’m a little inclined to Jesus not existing.

I’m in the opinion that if people can’t agree on something it’s likely that they all got it wrong.

EMA: At least you recognize there is that “something” which “people can’t agree on” which justifies your search.

don robert: Can we say Jesus was the “perfect being” Mang Epi, being He is a Man-God?

Yes don, we can say that Jesus was the “perfect being” for man to emulate in ways and attitude especially when facing afflictions and sufferings one encounters in living the Christian life. Jesus was made perfect through the sufferings he experienced as the captain of man’s salvation.

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Admerald: EPI.

Do you believe that Jesus is the God-MAN, meaning 100% God and 100% man at the same time when he become flesh?

EMA: No. “God-MAN” (why capitalize “man” and not God?) is a two-word combination introduced into the bible to suit a teaching which directly contradicts the bible.

How can Jesus be 100% God when it is the very nature of being immortal which was removed in the lowering of the Word to that level in which he could die?

Understanding the word “became” is crucial.

When the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, there was only one resultant being and not two, the mortal Jesus Christ.

don robert: Thanks, Mang Epi.

I had this previous discussion with a good bible “theolegian” of sorts (not a priest), about Jesus Christ, as both man and God. Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God. This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God. What can you say about this “scenario”, Mang Epi?

And going back to the subject, I would want to ask you Mang Epi when JC “died”, and since He is man at the same time also, where was the “flesh” when the tomb was opened? Did JC resurrect both in the flesh and in spirit? This, as doubting Thomas was asked to insert his finger in the flesh wound of JC, would prove that JC was still in the “flesh” during his resurrection.

atsaka: Can I answer this don robert?

Jesus’ body resurrected too, or “survived” the crucifixion. Whichever term you prefer, the body IS ALIVE.

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they beheld a spirit.

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do questionings arise in your heart?

Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.

Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here anything to eat?

Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish.

Luk 24:43 And he took it, and ate before them.

don robert: Thanks, bro! It’s actually a question related to the “man-God” subject.

Admerald: atsaka wrote:

Can I answer this don robert?

Jesus’ body resurrected too, or “survived” the crucifixion. Whichever term you prefer, the body IS ALIVE.

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they beheld a spirit.

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do questionings arise in your heart?

Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.

Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here anything to eat?

Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish.

Luk 24:43 And he took it, and ate before them.

————————————–

Well you just disprove EPI’s contention that the final product of man is spirit.

Was the ressurected Jesus spirit, or is he have flesh and bones as well?

EMA: Admerald wrote:

What? YAHWEH can DIE?

That is absurd. Yahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die.

When Yahweh becomes flesh, he is still Yahweh, he is still the Word. He is still God.

That is the reason why Jesus forgives sin while he is on earth, why Jesus accept worships, because he is still Yahweh, God in flesh.

And when Jesus died, it is the Flesh that died, and not Yahweh, for Yahweh cannot die.

————————————–

Yes, YHWH cannot die. For this reason he had to strip or empty himself of his nature of immortality so that he could die.

Your statement “Yahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die” directly contradicts the bible and is the “absurd”.

Again that word “became” which should be understood as “turned into”. What was previous is no longer what it is at present. Otherwise, don’t use the word “became”.

EMA: Admerald wrote:

NO, it is is you who is talking about God ceasing to be God.

You just admit “the Word did!”

The Word did what? God ceasing to be God.

that is what you are telling to us here EPI.

anyway, your theology is really faulty in many ways EPI, not only you are telling to us that God does not know everything, you are also telling to us that there are many Gods as if the Word is one count God + the Father as one count God. Which makes 2 Gods.

The Bible clearly says that there is only One GOD.

————————————–

If the bible says that the Word became flesh (John 1:14), that he was emptied or stripped of his God nature of immortality (Philippians 2:7) for the purpose of death (Hebrews 2:9), I believe the bible.

I don’t mind if my “theology is really faulty in many ways” if it is you who is saying it Adme.

I have cited the bible situation of God not knowing Abraham’s decision before Abraham actually did decide to kill Isaac and you refuse it, I won’t be surprised if you will call even the bible as faulty.

Even the unity of God as one, which is to be understood as that of man and wife who are two but “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24), is strange to you.

Read the bible Adme, and not read into it.

EMA: don robert wrote:

I had this previous discussion with a good bible “theolegian” of sorts (not a priest), about Jesus Christ, as both man and God. Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God. This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God. What can you say about this “scenario”, Mang Epi?

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I would like this to be clear, don, that when the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, only one being existed and not two.

“Perfect” in the sense that Jesus was sinless but was “imperfect” in the sense that he had not yet experienced sufferings. He did became “perfect” after he experienced the sufferings (Heb 2:10).

Yes, Jesus death reconciled man to God (Romans 5:10, 1st part) but it was Jesus’ resurrection, his “life” after death, which will save man from perishing (Romans 5:10, 2nd part).

When Jesus died man’s reconciliation was practically effected because the penalty of sin was removed. Man sort of became sinless and since God is sinless, man and God “reconciled”.

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don robert wrote:

And going back to the subject, I would want to ask you Mang Epi when JC “died”, and since He is man at the same time also, where was the “flesh” when the tomb was opened? Did JC resurrect both in the flesh and in spirit? This, as doubting Thomas was asked to insert his finger in the flesh wound of JC, would prove that JC was still in the “flesh” during his resurrection.

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The flesh was turned to spirit. Jesus did not resurrect as flesh but as spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

But the resurrected Jesus could manifest himself as flesh in order for man to see and touch him. Otherwise, his disciples, who were at that time still not imbued with the Holy Spirit, could not believe that it was really Jesus who had died and who appeared to them.

Admerald: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

No. “God-MAN” (why capitalize “man” and not God?) is a two-word combination introduced into the bible to suit a teaching which directly contradicts the bible.

How can Jesus be 100% God when it is the very nature of being immortal which was removed in the lowering of the Word to that level in which he could die?

Understanding the word “became” is crucial.

When the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, there was only one resultant being and not two, the mortal Jesus Christ.

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What happened to the immortal word when it became Jesus. Ceased to exist?

It’s immortal! meaning it always exist?

Yeah, I believe understanding the word became is crucial, no way it means that when the Word become flesh is no longer a word. He is still the Word. As what you said, it is immortal!

NOw answer this, If Jesus is not God when he is in flesh, Why he accept worship? that is idolatry if he is not God.

WHy he forgive sins, that is blasphemy for only God can forgive sins.

Admerald: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Yes, YHWH cannot die. For this reason he had to strip or empty himself of his nature of immortality so that he could die.

Your statement “Yahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die” directly contradicts the bible and is the “absurd”.

Again that word “became” which should be understood as “turned into”. What was previous is no longer what it is at present. Otherwise, don’t use the word “became”.

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You are telling to us “God made himself not God anymore”.

That is absurd!

If God made himself not God anymore, then there is a point in time that there is no God at all. Or there are many Gods and one of this God made himself not God anymore. Which one you prefer EPI?

What I said is this, “YAHWEH becomes flesh, and it is the Flesh that die, not Yahweh for yahweh cannot die. Please don’t mispresent my position here EPI.”

The word become in JOhn 1:14 comes from the greek word ginomai which means, to become, or to pass, or to happen, to be done.

It is simply telling to us that the WOrd become flesh, it does not tell you that it is no longer a Word, otherwise you are going to create a lot of absurdities.

Is Jesus not The Word anymore when he become Flesh? Read 1 JOhn 1:1

We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning,whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life

See that, John testified that they have seen in there eyes, and they touched with there hands. Who?

The Word of Life!

The Scripture is very clear, How could you deny that???

Admerald: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I don’t mind if my “theology is really faulty in many ways” if it is you who is saying it Adme. 🙂

I have cited the bible situation of God not knowing Abraham’s decision before Abraham actually did decide to kill Isaac and you refuse it, I won’t be surprised if you will call even the bible as faulty.

Even the unity of God as one, which is to be understood as that of man and wife who are two but “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24), is strange to you.

Read the bible Adme, and not read into it.

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as if you are the only one who Read the Bible correctly. meaning the rest of Orthodox Christianity are reading the Bible wrongly.

In the other thread I replied that “God not knowing Abraham’s decision,”. I’ll wait for your answer.

The Unity of God is not strange to me, How often you hear me use the “man and wife analogy” in defense of the Trinity.

One Being God in 3 persons.

While what you are telling to as is that there are many God beings. Can you tell us exactly how many Gods do you believe?

jaime p ramos: don robert wrote:

Thanks, Mang Epi.

I had this previous discussion with a good bible “theolegian” of sorts (not a priest), about Jesus Christ, as both man and God. Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God. This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God. What can you say about this “scenario”, Mang Epi?.

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Mawalang Galang na nga po sir don robert, ka ePi, sir Admeral, if may participate in your important dixcussions. Beside ka Epi’s comments, here is nother angle to ansswer the above inquiry..

Mark 10:18, “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” You know what Jesus was saying there? “You’re not calling me God are you?” He really put this guy on the spot, right? “Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” And Jesus says, “Your not calling me God, are you?” Jesus isn’t denying that; He’s putting the guy on the spot. He’s saying “What are you saying to me?” You see, you cannot just find one verse; you know, this is what people do. You know, people proof text their ignorance incessantly.

But the best thing to say to people like that is, “That verse isn’t sufficient.” I tell people who have a question about the deity of Jesus Christ? “If you really want to know the truth, you sit down and read the gospel of John from chapter 1 to chapter 21. Read the whole thing, and then come back and tell me that Jesus isn’t God. Don’t pull out a verse like that.” I mean, “A wayfaring man” as it says in the Old Testament “though he be a fool, need not err.” There is one thing that is absolutely clear in the Scripture, and that is that Jesus is God. There’s no other way to explain anything about Him. What you don’t want to do when dealing with somebody like that is get tangled up in the one verse. Put the burden on them. Say “OK, you’ve given me your little verse, now you read the gospel of John, and come back and tell me whether that’s the right conclusion or not. Or read Colossians, chapter 1.

Jesus called on His powers of deity repeatedly to corroborate His teaching. He would teach and of course there would be the response of certain people, “Well, why should we believe this guy?” So in John 14:10 he says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?” Do you have trouble believing the I am God? “ …the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwells in me, He doeth the works.” “Believe me,” or that is believe my word, literally, “…that I am in the Father and the Father in Me…” In other words believe my words about being God. Now here, “…or else believe Me for the very works’ sake.” John 14:11. “…believe Me for the very works’ sake.”

At the end of the Gospel of John, the 20th chapter, the 30th verse, “And many other signs…” and what is a sign for? What does a sign do? Points to something, doesn’t it? A sign, it tells you, you are going somewhere, it points to something . Many signs pointing to something “did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: But these words are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.” Jesus did many signs pointing to His deity. Many miracles and the Gospel of John records many of them. The Gospel of Matthew, is just loaded with them, as well as Mark and Luke. But Matthew, particularly.

In Matthew 15;29, for example, “Jesus departed from there and came near to the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain and sat down.” “And great multitudes came,” and of course this is a teaching setting, Jesus on a mountain in Galilee and the masses of humanity come. And they came, the “… lame, the blind, the dumb, the maimed, and many other, and put them down at Jesus’ feet, and He healed them.” “Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be well, the lame to walk, and the blind to see; and they glorified the God of Israel.” And that’s exactly what Jesus wanted them to do. He corroborated His constant teaching, His constant claims with many, many acts of deity.

Thank you.

atsaka: do you have the habit of calling people who don’t agree with you ignorant? Or do you want me to tell you again that you are a destroyer of the english language like what you just did today and like you did to the “effeminate” topic to force your beliefs?

grean villacarlos: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

With the storm that visited PRMO having passed, I suppose, let’s get back to PRMO business.

With the object for bible believers to try to “synchronize” their bible understanding to “come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God” (Ephesians 4:13), let’s discuss Christ’s death.

My understanding is that when the Jesus Christ of the bible died, he really was dead and unconscious until the Father raised him back to life from the state of being dead.

Non-bible believers are, as always, welcome to also comment.

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Hey Guys,

Its nice to see you again. So far in five pages of this discussion, I find no clear stand yet based on what’s Epi (TS) trying to emphasized.

As a catholic, part of our “apostles creed” says; He DESCENDED INTO HELL; THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD; The person who composed the Apostles Creed basing the word “DESCENDED INTO HELL” from 1 Peter 3:18-19 “18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison”:

The word HELL in the Bible has different meanings. “Because you will not leave my soul in hell; nor you will give Your holy one to see corruption.” Psalms. 16:10

Hell – a state for righteous souls in the Old Testament. ” And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping, Into hell… Gen. 37:35 Bible scholars interpret the word Hell in the old testament as a state of righteous souls waiting for salvation.

And is different from the Hell Jesus was talking about. And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: 47 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

To those who believed that Jesus did not exist. No problem for me. To those who did not believed that Jesus died physically and resurrected after 3 days… Still no Problem with me. For me, we just here to share what we believed, there’s no need to refute each one belief. Even the unbeliever has faith on their deepest. That’s why they keep telling us God did not exist.

boxing_the_no1_sport: He was crucified, died and was buried

atsaka: Admerald wrote:

Well you just disprove EPI’s contention that the final product of man is spirit.

Was the ressurected Jesus spirit, or is he have flesh and bones as well?

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How can you make such a wild conclusion using those verses? It doesn’t follow.

Admerald: You just quoted it, clear and straightforward.

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having

the spirit does not have flesh and bones, yet Jesus has them. So his disciples can see and hold them.

Can you hold the Spirit? No!

Why?

Because it do not have flesh and bone.

But Jesus has it, so you can hold Him.

Here is a good translation:

Look at my hands. Look at my feet. You can see that it’s really me. Touch me and make sure that I am not a ghost, because ghosts don’t have bodies, as you see that I do.” NLT

atsaka: You said: Well you just disprove EPI’s contention that the final product of man is spirit.

It doesn’t follow that if Jesus resurrected with a body, mankind will too. Maybe you should use another verse.

YAKMAN: Hi Tony.

Admerald: I’ll asked EPI to clarify this one to you.

EPI’s theology is based on the teachings of HW ARMSTRONG, whom EPI consider as the best theologian in our time.

In Armstrong teachings, they believe that the final product man is a spirit being, and Jesus Christ was raised as spirit being, without flesh.

And we will be like Jesus, spirit beings with out flesh.

If you follow our discussion with EPI, he believe that the human Jesus is not God for he have flesh. So in order for Jesus to be God again, the flesh must be remove from Him.

WHich is contradictory to the teachings of the Scripture, which states that the resurected Jesus have flesh and bones. and we too will have this kind of body. and Paul describe it in 1 Cor 15, as spiritual body. A new body that cannot be curropted.

atsaka: Well its just logical that the HUMAN Jesus is not God simply because he has flesh. God is supposed to be a spirit remember? A human dies remember?

YAKMAN: Besides, Jesus did not say he is God, right? Tony?

atsaka: CW wag sumingit!! Masisira ang diskarte!! We are talking about the HUMAN Jesus.

YAKMAN: I have no reason to change handle, I’m not CW. Aminin mo nang ikaw si Tony.

YAKMAN: atsaka wrote:

Can I answer this don robert?

Jesus’ body resurrected too, or “survived” the crucifixion. Whichever term you prefer, the body IS ALIVE.

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they beheld a spirit.

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do questionings arise in your heart?

Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.

Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here anything to eat?

Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish.

Luk 24:43 And he took it, and ate before them.

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This proves the teaching of Quran that Jesus did not really die. Right, Tony?

Admerald: atsaka wrote:

Well its just logical that the HUMAN Jesus is not God simply because he has flesh. God is supposed to be a spirit remember? A human dies remember?

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Yes God is Spirit. But the Question is “was there a limitation in God’s part to enter to his own Creation”? No.

That is why the Word become flesh, Yahweh become flesh, God become flesh. He enters to his own creation.

The next question is this, When God becomes flesh, does He ceased to be God? No.

For God cannot make himself not God anymore. Or else you are telling to us that God ceased to exist in a while, or he dies in a while.

God cannot die, he must always exist. That is why we Believe Jesus is both man and God at the same time. For His divinity cannot die, it must always exist.

that is why Jesus accept worship, forgive sins while he in Flesh.

Because he have the authority to do so, authority that only God can have.

EMA: Admerald wrote:

What happened to the immortal word when it became Jesus. Ceased to exist?

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Not “ceased to exist”. The bible is clear and don’t add to it. The Word became flesh.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…

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Admerald wrote:

It’s immortal! meaning it always exist?

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Is God powerless to make the immortal Word become the mortal Jesus? Well, God is powerful that he stripped or emptied the immortal Word with his immortal nature so that he could die.

Philippians 2:(Darby Translation) 6who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;

7but emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men;

8and having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and [that the] death of [the] cross.

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Admerald wrote:

Yeah, I believe understanding the word became is crucial, no way it means that when the Word become flesh is no longer a word. He is still the Word. As what you said, it is immortal!

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When the immortal Word became flesh by the all powerful God’s doing, the Word became mortal flesh.

Don’t you think God had that power to change the Word”s nature from immortal to mortal and back to immortal at Christ’s resurrection?

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Admerald wrote:

NOw answer this, If Jesus is not God when he is in flesh, Why he accept worship? that is idolatry if he is not God.

WHy he forgive sins, that is blasphemy for only God can forgive sins.

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The mortal Jesus accepted worship and forgave sins since he was given “all authority” by God.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

EMA: Admerald wrote:

You are telling to us “God made himself not God anymore”.

That is absurd!

If God made himself not God anymore, then there is a point in time that there is no God at all. Or there are many Gods and one of this God made himself not God anymore. Which one you prefer EPI?

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Back to basics Adme.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Two beings, not three, are mentioned in these verses each of whom are called “God”.

If you say that the Father is the same being as Jesus Christ, then Jesus was making a fool of the bible readers when he prayed to God while on earth. When Jesus died, then the Father should have also died together with Jesus.

This belief simply says that you don’t believe that Christ died which belief is “of first importance” lest your belief would be in vain.

1 Corinthians (NIV) 15:1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died…

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Admerald wrote:

What I said is this, “YAHWEH becomes flesh, and it is the Flesh that die, not Yahweh for yahweh cannot die. Please don’t mispresent my position here EPI.”

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I am not interpreting your position Adme so there could be no way for me to misinterpret it.

The Word became flesh. Don’t add to it.

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Admerald wrote:

The word become in JOhn 1:14 comes from the greek word ginomai which means, to become, or to pass, or to happen, to be done.

It is simply telling to us that the WOrd become flesh, it does not tell you that it is no longer a Word, otherwise you are going to create a lot of absurdities.

Is Jesus not The Word anymore when he become Flesh? Read 1 JOhn 1:1

We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning,whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life

See that, John testified that they have seen in there eyes, and they touched with there hands. Who?

The Word of Life!

The Scripture is very clear, How could you deny that???

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The Word did not cease to exist when he became flesh. That is very clear. What was changed was his nature of being not subject to death to that which was.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

EMA: Admerald wrote:

as if you are the only one who Read the Bible correctly. meaning the rest of Orthodox Christianity are reading the Bible wrongly.

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If they insist on the immortality of the soul and man’s going to heaven, etc., I stand by my position that they and you are reading pre-conceived ideas into the bible.

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Admerald wrote:

In the other thread I replied that “God not knowing Abraham’s decision,”. I’ll wait for your answer.

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I haven’t read it yet. Which “other thread” was that?

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Admerald wrote:

The Unity of God is not strange to me, How often you hear me use the “man and wife analogy” in defense of the Trinity.

One Being God in 3 persons.

While what you are telling to as is that there are many God beings. Can you tell us exactly how many Gods do you believe?

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We differ in trinity because I don’t believe it.

I believe the bible. John 1:1 identifies two beings called God composing God (Genesis 1:1, 26).

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:26 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…

atsaka: YAKMAN wrote:

I have no reason to change handle, I’m not CW. Aminin mo nang ikaw si Tony.

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Eh kung ako nga si Tony, what satisfaction can it give you?

YAKMAN: Syempre ayaw kong mawala si Tony. I’m glad that you’re back.

atsaka: I’m not him. I’m a gurl.

YAKMAN: Nice to meet you Tonya.

Admerald: Admerald wrote:

I’ll asked EPI to clarify this one to you.

EPI’s theology is based on the teachings of HW ARMSTRONG, whom EPI consider as the best theologian in our time.

In Armstrong teachings, they believe that the final product man is a spirit being, and Jesus Christ was raised as spirit being, without flesh.

And we will be like Jesus, spirit beings with out flesh.

If you follow our discussion with EPI, he believe that the human Jesus is not God for he have flesh. So in order for Jesus to be God again, the flesh must be remove from Him.

WHich is contradictory to the teachings of the Scripture, which states that the resurected Jesus have flesh and bones. and we too will have this kind of body. and Paul describe it in 1 Cor 15, as spiritual body. A new body that cannot be curropted.

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Not contrary to scripture but contrary to your beliefs Adme.

To understand Luke 24:37-43 as quoted by atsaka, one should consider the situation of the disciples at that time when the Holy Spirit has not been given them yet.

Not having the Holy Spirit to guide them in their belief in Jesus, the disciples who saw Jesus walking on water thought they were seeing a ghost. Jesus had to assure them it was he.

Matthew 14:25 Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. 26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”

When Jesus died and was resurrected, the disciples did not also believe that he has been resurrected as they did not know yet “the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead”.

John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

So the spirit Jesus, who could not be seen by the human eye, had to manifest himself as flesh and bones for the disciples to believe that it was indeed he the Jesus who had risen from the dead. But when he appeared to them, the disciples again thought he was a spirit (ghost) as before.

Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.

Jesus had to identify himself to them talking to them in their level who have not yet been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Luke 24:38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

But while they were joyful and marveled at the occurrence, still the disciples could not believe they were seeing and touching Jesus.

Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled…

So Jesus had to still show proof he was Jesus by eating in their presence as has been their practice before Jesus’ death.

Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

The resurrected Jesus, the last Adam, became a life giving spirit who has the power to manifest as flesh and bones and could eat if he wants.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Before he became the human Jesus, the being YHWH had manifested himself in the form of a man showing himself to Joshua as “the Commander of the LORD’s army”.

Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

15 Then the Commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

The being was not merely an angel for an angel, who is a man’s fellow servant of God, would not accept worship.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!

YAKMAN: Jesus did not become a spirit after the resurrection as he clearly said that spirit hath no flesh and bones that he have. Ayon sa Panginoon mismo, ang espiritu ay walang laman at buto samantalng sya ay mayroon. Napakaliwanag na sinsabi ng Panginoon na hindi sya espiritu sapagkat sya ay may laman at may buto. Huwag nating dagdagan ng mga dahilang ginawa lang natin at wala naman sa biblia para lang baguhin ang sinabi na ng Panginoon. Don’t read from the bible what is not there.

EMA: grean villacarlos wrote:

Hey Guys,

Its nice to see you again. So far in five pages of this discussion, I find no clear stand yet based on what’s Epi (TS) trying to emphasized.

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Let me state my “stand” to you grean and to everyone.

Before he became Jesus, the Word or YHWH was not subject to death. When the Word became Jesus, he was subject to death and he did die. When he was raised from the dead, death no longer had power over Jesus who reacquired that previous nature of his who is not subject to death.

Since the spirit YHWH or Word was turned into a mortal human, God had to fill him with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit

God would not have filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit if there was already a spirit, YHWH or Word, in him.

The human Jesus was not just the flesh and blood whose spirit in the man was the YHWH or the Word that when he died, only the flesh and blood died and the YHWH or Word in him went somewhere else during his “death”.

To believe this erroneous teaching is to believe that Jesus Christ did not really die.

EMA: YAKMAN wrote:

Jesus did not become a spirit after the resurrection as he clearly said that spirit hath no flesh and bones that he have. Ayon sa Panginoon mismo, ang espiritu ay walang laman at buto samantalng sya ay mayroon. Napakaliwanag na sinsabi ng Panginoon na hindi sya espiritu sapagkat sya ay may laman at may buto. Huwag nating dagdagan ng mga dahilang ginawa lang natin at wala naman sa biblia para lang baguhin ang sinabi na ng Panginoon. Don’t read from the bible what is not there.

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Oh, it’s there.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

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YAKMAN wrote:

JSee my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having

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Jesus was talking to the still unconverted and Holy Spirit bare disciples who did not know the scripture that Jesus was to rise from the dead.

John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

Anyway, I’ve explained enough.

YAKMAN:  Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Oh, it’s there.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

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Christ is a spirit just like men has spirit. The point is Christ retained his physical body after the resurrection. Remember that he gave up his spirit when he died that’s why his body became lifeless but after the resurrection his spirit returned to his physical body.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Jesus was talking to the still unconverted and Holy Spirit bare disciples who did not know the scripture that Jesus was to rise from the dead.

John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

Anyway, I’ve explained enough.

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Whether the disciples know it or not, the definiton of a spirit remains the same, without flesh and bones. Jesus told his disciples that he is not a spirit because he has flesh and bones that a spirit doesn’t have.

EMA: I’ve explained enough. Just reread my previous post if you care.

YAKMAN: Christ has already given us the definition of spirit and that definition does not fit his resurrected body. Any explanation against it is useless unless we know better than him.

EMA: It’s alright with me if you don’t reread my post.

Admerald: YAKMAN wrote:

Jesus did not become a spirit after the resurrection as he clearly said that spirit hath no flesh and bones that he have. Ayon sa Panginoon mismo, ang espiritu ay walang laman at buto samantalng sya ay mayroon. Napakaliwanag na sinsabi ng Panginoon na hindi sya espiritu sapagkat sya ay may laman at may buto. Huwag nating dagdagan ng mga dahilang ginawa lang natin at wala naman sa biblia para lang baguhin ang sinabi na ng Panginoon. Don’t read from the bible what is not there.

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having

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kaya nga eh, napakaliwanaga ang sabi sa text. tapos sisingitan ng kung ano anong idea maisingit lang ang turo ng simbahan ni EPI.

Tapos ang lakas ng loob na sasabihing sila ang biblical.

EPI, let us do this. let us both pray, that God have mercy on us, and he will open our eyes to His truth, to draw us to His Son.

at this point of time, I’m convinced that it is only God who can change the man’s heart, not our decision but God’s choice.

EMA: Adme, pray to be given understanding on the difference between a person who has no Holy Spirit in him and another who has. It is the Holy Spirit which leads one to understanding. In fact pray to have it or, if you already have it, that you be given more of it.

Elisha asked Elijah’s help for him to have a double portion of the spirit Elijah had.

2 Kings 2:9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”

Jesus’ disciples received the Holy Spirit only beginning at Pentecost (Acts 2) for which lack during Christ’s resurrection, Jesus had to adjust to their level in communicating with them.

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Not contrary to scripture but contrary to your beliefs Adme.

To understand Luke 24:37-43 as quoted by atsaka, one should consider the situation of the disciples at that time when the Holy Spirit has not been given them yet.

Not having the Holy Spirit to guide them in their belief in Jesus, the disciples who saw Jesus walking on water thought they were seeing a ghost. Jesus had to assure them it was he.

Matthew 14:25 Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. 26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”

When Jesus died and was resurrected, the disciples did not also believe that he has been resurrected as they did not know yet “the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead”.

John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

So the spirit Jesus, who could not be seen by the human eye, had to manifest himself as flesh and bones for the disciples to believe that it was indeed he the Jesus who had risen from the dead. But when he appeared to them, the disciples again thought he was a spirit (ghost) as before.

Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.

Jesus had to identify himself to them talking to them in their level who have not yet been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Luke 24:38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

But while they were joyful and marveled at the occurrence, still the disciples could not believe they were seeing and touching Jesus.

Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled…

So Jesus had to still show proof he was Jesus by eating in their presence as has been their practice before Jesus’ death.

Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

The resurrected Jesus, the last Adam, became a life giving spirit who has the power to manifest as flesh and bones and could eat if he wants.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Before he became the human Jesus, the being YHWH had manifested himself in the form of a man showing himself to Joshua as “the Commander of the LORD’s army”.

Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

15 Then the Commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

The being was not merely an angel for an angel, who is a man’s fellow servant of God, would not accept worship.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!

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You are one cool customer, Mang Epi, even amidst the “hostile” responses.

I don’t fully subscribe to your “idea” Mang Epi, but I am “enlightened” on how you explained yourself, knitting your way thru different verses to support your “idea”. That should be the lawyer in you, at work!

I find reason with Mang Adme’s stance on the “flesh” part of the argument, in the same way I do with your “spirit” as the final product. But it doesn’t mean Jesus is only one or the other, and not capable of being both at the same time. IMO, I believe the scriptures say Jesus resurrected in body. The “resurrected” Jesus, being God, can choose to manifest Himself as Spirit and/or in body, anyway He wants to.

On to another question, Mang Epi. Can a soul or spirit die?

duncan mCcloud: NO…i will ask you is christ a god…

EMA: Before he became flesh and after his resurrection, Christ was and is God. He was human when he became flesh (John 1:14).

EMA: don robert wrote:

You are one cool customer, Mang Epi, even amidst the “hostile” responses. 😀

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Nothing personal in exchanges of ideas don. Besides, one should live his belief and not merely mouth it.

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don robert wrote:

I don’t fully subscribe to your “idea” Mang Epi, but I am “enlightened” on how you explained yourself, knitting your way thru different verses to support your “idea”. That should be the lawyer in you, at work!

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So the enlightenment is just on how I explain myself and not really on what I explained. To subscribe to the idea heard surely is another matter.

I disagree that it is “the lawyer in” me which enables me “knit” my way through “different verses to support” the “idea”. I ascribe it to understanding the subject.

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don robert wrote:

I find reason with Mang Adme’s stance on the “flesh” part of the argument, in the same way I do with your “spirit” as the final product. But it doesn’t mean Jesus is only one or the other, and not capable of being both at the same time. IMO, I believe the scriptures say Jesus resurrected in body. The “resurrected” Jesus, being God, can choose to manifest Himself as Spirit and/or in body, anyway He wants to.

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The scripture does not “say Jesus resurrected in body”. It says the opposite – spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.

As spirit, one can manifest into a human body form. The OT is replete with angels manifesting as humans and seen by the people to whom they were sent to by God. YHWH manifested himself as the Commander of the LORD’s army to Joshua. Etc.

That the resurrected Jesus showed his body to be touched by the still unconverted disciples was for them to recognize him.

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don robert wrote:

On to another question, Mang Epi. Can a soul or spirit die?

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I don’t agree with “soul or spirit”. These are two different matters.

The soul can die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.

The Son of man can destroy the soul.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The spirit which refers to the spirit in man, is his breath and not being a separate living being, it does not die.

The spirit which refers to angels, seraphim, cherubim or God, does not die.

jaime p ramos: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Before he became flesh and after his resurrection, Christ was and is God. He was human when. he became flesh (John 1:14)

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Sir Epi correct me if I am wrong in understanding your inputs above.

When Jesus Christ became flesh He was only a human being and lost temporarily His essence as God during that historical time.

Is this a right understanding of mine, a correct interpretation of your comments above?

EMA: Yes, you are right sir Jim.

Jesus was stripped or had emptied himself of that God nature reducing his level to lower than that of angels which is his being subject to death (Philippians 2:6-7). Death is powerless over a God being.

jaime p ramos: 1.Thank you.

2. I am still wondering the concept of God being eternal and then suddenly becomes temporary. It is too much a contradictory terms. Is it not over extending the reading? Can eternal be temporary? There is an obvious tension there.

3. Is not the right approach should be, we just let it remain that Jesus is God-Man one whole person.

4 And simply accept that God did not give us the ability to grasp it and just believe it that Jesus as one whole person. Not separating his God essence and the human characteristics?

5. So it will remain a mystery and majestic as well because in order to be God, God must be mysterious and majestic as well.

6. Beside Jesus has still have His Spirit after His physical death.

7. And death means separation from God and Jesus was literally separated from God from that moment in time, when God the Father has forsaken Him.

Matthew 27:46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Mark 15:34.”And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

What do you think?

EMA: jaime p ramos wrote:

1.Thank you.

2. I am still wondering the concept of God being eternal and then suddenly becomes temporary. It is too much a contradictory terms. Is it not over extending the reading? Can eternal be temporary? There is an obvious tension there.

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Why ask those questions Jim when clearly the bible states that a God being was lowered to the level below that of angels?

Hebrews 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;

That this change required the shedding or stripping or emptying of that God nature which cannot die so that he could die.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death…

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jaime p ramos wrote:

3. Is not the right approach should be, we just let it remain that Jesus is God-Man one whole person.

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I don’t believe this “God-Man” concept. It is either God or man. When the bible states that the spirit Word “became” flesh, it simply means that the being who was spirit ceased to be spirit and became flesh.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

4 And simply accept that God did not give us the ability to grasp it and just believe it that Jesus as one whole person. Not separating his God essence and the human characteristics?

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His God essence of being immortal was removed. Why insist it was still there?

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jaime p ramos wrote:

5. So it will remain a mystery and majestic as well because in order to be God, God must be mysterious and majestic as well.

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Mystery to the many is revealed to some. What was revealed to Paul he is sharing to believers.

Ephesians 3:3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),

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jaime p ramos wrote:

6. Beside Jesus has still have His Spirit after His physical death.

Any bible verse to support this line Jim?

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jaime p ramos wrote:

7. And death means separation from God and Jesus was literally separated from God from that moment in time, when God the Father has forsaken Him.

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I’m seeing how far your understanding on “death” have changed. You no longer believe that death is cessation of life.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

Matthew 27:46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Mark 15:34.”And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

What do you think?

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You are quoting verses which do not describe death. These verses clearly show Jesus is still alive.

Come on Jimmy.

jaime p ramos: 1.Ok then you make yourself clear regarding your interpretation and understanding on terms eternal vs temporary and especially that you do not believe God-Man whole personality of Jesus.

2. You are right. I do not believe many old teachings and doctrines in the former WCG headed by Mr. Armstrong. Nothing though against Mr. Armstrong personally. I still respect him!

3. Thanks again for your comments.

EMA: jaime p ramos wrote:

1.Ok then you make yourself clear regarding your interpretation and understanding on terms eternal vs temporary and especially that you do not believe God-Man whole personality of Jesus.

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I don’t think my post was about “eternal vs temporary”. If the bible says the Word emptied himself of his God nature of being not subject to death, I believe it.

If the bible says Jesus died, I will not question it and say that Jesus did not die because a God is eternal. Otherwise my stand would be that Jesus did not really die.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

2. You are right. I do not believe many old teachings and doctrines in the former WCG headed by Mr. Armstrong. Nothing though against Mr. Armstrong personally. I still respect him!

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I also have grown from the “old teachings and doctrines in the former WCG headed by Mr. Armstrong”.

In this our discussion, my basis is the bible and not one of the “old teachings and doctrines in the former WCG headed by Mr. Armstrong”.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

3. Thanks again for your comments.

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You’re welcome. I thought you were ready to sort out our differences now in beliefs.

jaime p ramos: Ok. Let us try to discuss only, but no enforcement of personal interpretations. Hopefully we can both grow in undertanding!

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Why ask those questions Jim when clearly the bible states that a God being was lowered to the level below that of angels? Hebrews 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;That this change required the shedding or stripping or emptying of that God nature which cannot die so that he could die. Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death.

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Both verses is in harmony with Jesus as Man, lower than angels. and as man He could die.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I don’t believe this “God-Man” concept. It is either God or man. When the bible states that the spirit Word “became” flesh, it simply means that the being who was spirit ceased to be spirit and became flesh.

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1. I respect your belief that you do not believe this God-Man concept.

2. However for purposes of intellectual discussions only (again no enforcement of conviction), as well as on the point of interpretation and correct understanding of the words eternal and temporary, an eternal being like God cannot be in any way be temporary, eternal is eternal. There is no way even in an English grammar class that the teacher will accept that the meaning of eternal word can become temporary. It is impossible! That is why I mentioned there is an obvious tension on the meaning of eternal vs temporary and for that matter a Being who is eternal can in no way lost his eternality. 3.Your interpretation above that the “spirit ceased to be spirit” in contrast to what is exactly written in John 1:14 which is the Word became flesh lies the critical interpretation. This is where i commented an over extension of the reading wherein you interpreted it as “spirit ceased to be spirit”. This is where I offer the suggestion that let us just keep it that way, where the Word is God, became flesh(man), so God-Man, the diety of Word was not lost as well as the becoming a flesh- the humanness of the Word is also present. So one whole person, not half God not half human, nor only a Man but not God anymore

4. God simply did not give us the capacity to understand it, so it is our problem because of our nature as finite being. We cannot grasp it and let us just leave the matter to God, and not try to explain it, for it cannot be fully explain, and when we try to be dogmatic about our interpretation there lies the many contentions and irritations. We should just follow the principle that “the just shall live by faith” (Romans 1;17), and maybe we will know it later in the world to come.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

His God essence of being immortal was removed. Why insist it was still there?

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Your interpretation “His God essence was removed”, I respect it . However I again give the same explanation above.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Mystery to the many is revealed to some. What was revealed to Paul he is sharing to believers. Ephesians 3:3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),

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1. The context of the above scripture was about the mystery that Jesus Christ who is God, will became flesh and will dwell among men. This mystery is not generally known in the nation of Israel. Now and in the apostles time no more mystery.

2. It is not about what I am discussion with you last night, regarding the full understanding of God-Man concept which is still and still remain a mystery to us all.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

6. Beside Jesus has still have His Spirit after His physical death.

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Any bible verse to support this line Jim?

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1 Peter 3:18. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19. through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison”

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I’m seeing how far your understanding on “death” have changed. You no longer believe that death is cessation of life.

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My understanding is physical death is the cessation of physical life

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jaime p ramos wrote:

You are quoting verses which do not describe death. These verses clearly show Jesus is still alive. Come on Jimmy.

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1.Yes of course, but he died after that last breath.

2. And to me the essence of spiritual death is separation from God, which was literally experienced by the Lord Jesus Christ.

EMA: The issue we have is on the meaning of “the Word became flesh”.

Let me ask these questions Jim:

1. Is your understanding of “the Word became flesh” the Word remained as spirit which entered into a body?

2. If so, who is Jesus Christ in the combination?

3. When Jesus died, who or which part died?

EMA: jaime p ramos wrote:

1. I respect your belief that you do not believe this God-Man concept.

2. However for purposes of intellectual discussions only (again no enforcement of conviction), as well as on the point of interpretation and correct understanding of the words eternal and temporary, an eternal being like God cannot be in any way be temporary, eternal is eternal. There is no way even in an English grammar class that the teacher will accept that the meaning of eternal word can become temporary. It is impossible! That is why I mentioned there is an obvious tension on the meaning of eternal vs temporary and for that matter a Being who is eternal can in no way lost his eternality.

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The bible states that a spirit became (turned into, transformed) flesh and I believe it. It does not say that the spirit remained as such spirit and entered into a body.

Hence, to inject the contrast between eternal and temporary is misplaced.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

3.Your interpretation above that the “spirit ceased to be spirit” in contrast to what is exactly written in John 1:14 which is the Word became flesh lies the critical interpretation. This is where i commented an over extension of the reading wherein you interpreted it as “spirit ceased to be spirit”. This is where I offer the suggestion that let us just keep it that way, where the Word is God, became flesh(man), so God-Man, the diety of Word was not lost as well as the becoming a flesh- the humanness of the Word is also present. So one whole person, not half God not half human, nor only a Man but not God anymore

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How about the immortal ceasing to be immortal and becoming mortal. Or someone who cannot die was changed so that he could die. Can you accept this Jim?

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jaime p ramos wrote:

4. God simply did not give us the capacity to understand it, so it is our problem because of our nature as finite being. We cannot grasp it and let us just leave the matter to God, and not try to explain it, for it cannot be fully explain, and when we try to be dogmatic about our interpretation there lies the many contentions and irritations. We should just follow the principle that “the just shall live by faith” (Romans 1;17), and maybe we will know it later in the world to come.

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To a person indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I don’t agree that “God simply did not give us the capacity to understand it”.

A believer is encouraged to grow in knowledge.

2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

1. The context of the above scripture was about the mystery that Jesus Christ who is God, will became flesh and will dwell among men. This mystery is not generally known in the nation of Israel. Now and in the apostles time no more mystery.

2. It is not about what I am discussion with you last night, regarding the full understanding of God-Man concept which is still and still remain a mystery to us all.

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My point is that what is mystery to the many is being revealed to the Holy Spirit indwelt person.

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jaime p ramos wrote:

6. Beside Jesus has still have His Spirit after His physical death.

1 Peter 3:18. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19. through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison”

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Many believe this verse means that the body died but the spirit did not, that the spirit of Jesus remained conscious and did not die. “God-man” concept.

If one reads the verse carefully, he would notice that there is a sequence of two events:

1. “He was put to death in the body”;

2. “but made alive by the Spirit

Jesus, who is flesh, died and was unconscious. After some time being dead, Jesus was revived as spirit.

Let’s read some of the other bible versions of 1 Peter 3:18-19 (we cannot quote all).

1. The Message version – “He went through it all—was put to death and then made alive—to bring us to God.”

2. New Living Translation – “He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”

3. Amplified Bible – “In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit”

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jaime p ramos wrote:

7. And death means separation from God

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The second death the bible speaks of as punishment is to perish (John 3:16).

jaime p ramos: Ok. Thanks again for your comments.

boxingfan529: epi… if Jesus was purely a man then He would have belong to whom paul said in rom 3:10 which resulted to the penalty of sin in rom 3:23. only a God can remain sinless and Holy for ‘all have sinned and come short of the glory of God’. all the attributes of God from the Old Testament remained in Christ expect that of being in the flesh.

remember too that the prophet isaiah prophesied about Him…. ‘born of a virgin… called… the Mighty GOD’.

EMA: Welcome back bf.

Why don’t you answer the questions I asked Jaime which remains unanswered? These are:

1. Is your understanding of “the Word became flesh” the Word remained as spirit which entered into a body?

2. If so, who is Jesus Christ in the combination?

3. When Jesus died, who or which part died?

boxingfan529: epi, i in one approve jaime’s stand. i am just adding some points based from the old testament’s point of view about Christ.

also from isaiah, Christ was called Emmanuel meaning God with US. what does that mean? the answer is in the first chapters of matthew. when Christ was born, His other name was Emmanuel because God because flesh (as isaiah said..’born of a virgin) and He was with His people in the flesh. we always go back to the very nature of God – holy, righteous, all powerful, all knowing, just, and even omnipresent as evident during the calling of nathanael to be his disciple (john 1:43-51). it just shows that the Word became flesh ‘remained as spirit’. if not, then, who’s spirit was in Him during that time?

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

epi… if Jesus was purely a man then He would have belong to whom paul said in rom 3:10 which resulted to the penalty of sin in rom 3:23. only a God can remain sinless and Holy for ‘all have sinned and come short of the glory of God’.

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In an old thread I discussed with a5skick that my position is that Jesus was a man but not just a mere man he being the only man who was once a spirit member of the God family.

Paul knew who Christ was so Jesus was the exception in his statement.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

all the attributes of God from the Old Testament remained in Christ expect that of being in the flesh.

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When he became a human, Jesus did not retain these attributes he had before he became flesh:

1. Immortality – This is the nature Jesus was stripped of or emptied from him for the purpose of death (Philippians 2:7, Hebrews 2:9).

2. His own Godly power – As a human stripped of immortality, Jesus had total dependence on the Father.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

remember too that the prophet isaiah prophesied about Him…. ‘born of a virgin… called… the Mighty GOD’.

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It’s good you brought up Isaiah so that what he said can be properly understood. Isaiah 9:6 covers two periods of time in Jesus’ life.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.

And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

“For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given” refer to Christ as a human being.

“And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” refer to the resurrected and returned to earth Christ when he had assumed his position as King of kings and Lord of lords on the earth.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

epi, i in one approve jaime’s stand. i am just adding some points based from the old testament’s point of view about Christ.

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Jaime did not specifically answer the above 3 questions. Won’t you give your answers?

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boxingfan529 wrote:

also from isaiah, Christ was called Emmanuel meaning God with US. what does that mean? the answer is in the first chapters of matthew. when Christ was born, His other name was Emmanuel because God because flesh (as isaiah said..’born of a virgin) and He was with His people in the flesh. we always go back to the very nature of God – holy, righteous, all powerful, all knowing, just, and even omnipresent as evident during the calling of nathanael to be his disciple (john 1:43-51).

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Jesus’ being called Emmanuel is out of the question. He was God as the Word and he came from God.

The issue in this thread is whether the spirit YHWH or Word remained as such when he became flesh.

I say he did not remain a spirit precisely because he was changed to flesh.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

it just shows that the Word became flesh ‘remained as spirit’.

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Now you are getting to the point.

Just look for the verse to support your conclusion, “remained as spirit” when “the Word became flesh”, and I hope you will see the contradiction in your statement because there is no verse to support it.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

if not, then, who’s spirit was in Him during that time?

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Very good question bf. You’re getting there.

The spirit became flesh so there is no more spirit!

There being no more God spirit in the human Jesus, God filled him with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…

The Holy Spirit is the same power God gives to believers in the laying on of hands after baptism. Stephen was full of this power.

Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit…

jaime p ramos: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The issue we have is on the meaning of “the Word became flesh”.

Let me ask these questions Jim:

1. Is your understanding of “the Word became flesh” the Word remained as spirit which entered into a body?

2. If so, who is Jesus Christ in the combination?

3. When Jesus died, who or which part died?

————————————–

Epi I thought you already got my answer. For purposes of reiterating my answer here are the 2 inputs I gave..

I “I am still wondering the concept of God being eternal and then suddenly becomes temporary. It is too much a contradictory terms. Is it not over extending the reading? Can eternal be temporary? There is an obvious tension there.

– . Is not the right approach should be, we just let it remain that Jesus is God-Man one whole person.

– And simply accept that God did not give us the ability to grasp it and just believe it that Jesus as one whole person. Not separating his God essence and the human characteristics?”

II – “However for purposes of intellectual discussions only (again no enforcement of conviction), as well as on the point of interpretation and correct understanding of the words eternal and temporary, an eternal being like God cannot be in any way be temporary, eternal is eternal. There is no way even in an English grammar class that the teacher will accept that the meaning of eternal word can become temporary. It is impossible! That is why I mentioned there is an obvious tension on the meaning of eternal vs temporary and for that matter a Being who is eternal can in no way lost his eternality.

-.Your interpretation above that the “spirit ceased to be spirit” in contrast to what is exactly written in John 1:14 which is the Word became flesh lies the critical interpretation. This is where i commented an over extension of the reading wherein you interpreted it as “spirit ceased to be spirit”. This is where I offer the suggestion that let us just keep it that way, where the Word is God, became flesh(man), so God-Man, the diety of Word was not lost as well as the becoming a flesh- the humanness of the Word is also present. So one whole person, not half God not half human, nor only a Man but not God anymore

– God simply did not give us the capacity to understand it, so it is our problem because of our nature as finite being. We cannot grasp it and let us just leave the matter to God, and not try to explain it, for it cannot be fully explain, and when we try to be dogmatic about our interpretation there lies the many contentions and irritations. We should just follow the principle that “the just shall live by faith” (Romans 1;17), and maybe we will know it later in the world to come.”

So it is but natural that I will not reply to your questions because it will naturally lead to unending arguments, myriad contentions and confusing interpretations.

I just replied Ok to just respect your attempt to explain the unexplainable which is the mystery of God became flesh .

EMA: jaime p ramos wrote:

Epi I thought you already got my answer.

————————————–

No I didn’t because there were no answers.

————————————–

jaime p ramos wrote:

So it is but natural that I will not reply to your questions because it will naturally lead to unending arguments, myriad contentions and confusing interpretations.

————————————–

As I observed.

————————————–

jaime p ramos wrote:

I just replied Ok to just respect your attempt to explain the unexplainable which is the mystery of God became flesh .

————————————–

I won’t force the issue if you insist that the Word becoming flesh is a mystery to you.

jaime p ramos: Thank you then for understanding my stand on the subject that “there is no answer” ( meaning we cannot fully understand the God-Man concept.)

EMA: You’re welcome Jim.

But I can discuss with another who is bold enough to challenge his own belief or have his belief challenged for the sake of growth. This is one reason I am in this forum.

lbcya99: equalizer wrote:

Of course he died.

But he rose again after 3 days did he?

————————————–

yes on the 3rd day he rose again in fullfillment of the scriptures. He will come again to judge the living and the dead and his kingdome will have no end.

EMA: The question “did Christ really die?” comes up to those who believe that it was only the body that died and that Christ’s spirit did not die and even preached to the spirits in prison during the period when his body was dead.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

In an old thread I discussed with a5skick that my position is that Jesus was a man but not just a mere man he being the only man who was once a spirit member of the God family.

Paul knew who Christ was so Jesus was the exception in his statement.

————————————–

you are suggesting that God can be reduced to a man just like anybody else. in that case, he belongs to what paul called… to ‘all have sinned and came short of the glory of God…’ because flesh in its nature is sinful and enslaved to sin. without Jesus as God, He couldn’t withstand the desire of the flesh.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

When he became a human, Jesus did not retain these attributes he had before he became flesh:

1. Immortality – This is the nature Jesus was stripped of or emptied from him for the purpose of death (Philippians 2:7, Hebrews 2:9).

2. His own Godly power – As a human stripped of immortality, Jesus had total dependence on the Father.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing.

————————————–

Jesus in the flesh was of course not immortal. the flesh will go to corruption just like anybody else. but His spirit, which in nature God, will not. that same Spirit has all the power of being God.

Jesus was one with the Father. Jesus spoke that while in the flesh and it wouldn’t separate that oneness even at that state. remember, as the ‘Father glorified the Son, so does the Son glorifies the Father’ at what ever state He was – either in the flesh or not.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

It’s good you brought up Isaiah so that what he said can be properly understood. Isaiah 9:6 covers two periods of time in Jesus’ life.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.

And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

“For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given” refer to Christ as a human being.

“And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” refer to the resurrected and returned to earth Christ when he had assumed his position as King of kings and Lord of lords on the earth.

————————————–

you forgot to quote this to blend that above:

Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

it’s no secret why Jesus is called Immanuel or God with us because Jesus was God in the flesh among His people. the same person as called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. those verses from isaiah doesn’t suggest about any resurrected Christ but the child born by a virgin so your conclusion is somewhat incomplete. also, how can He be the ‘Everlasting Father’ if there was a gap in between of being everlasting. it’s like saying, He was everlasting before being born in the flesh and then restored that everlasting nature when He was resurrected again. in other words, there is inconsistency if you apply your theory.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Jaime did not specifically answer the above 3 questions. Won’t you give your answers?

————————————–

actually, as we discuss and i answer through this thread, i am already pointing that to your questions.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Jesus’ being called Emmanuel is out of the question. He was God as the Word and he came from God.

The issue in this thread is whether the spirit YHWH or Word remained as such when he became flesh.

I say he did not remain a spirit precisely because he was changed to flesh.

————————————–

as i have answered above, your theory is incomplete and inconsistent. also, how can you say He is not God in the flesh if in fact ‘He is God with US’? i think you can see the logic there.

btw epi, do you believe in soul/spirit? does man has spirit/soul when born? if your answer is yes then you think Jesus was spiritless aside from being filled with the Spirit?

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Very good question bf. You’re getting there.

The spirit became flesh so there is no more spirit!

There being no more God spirit in the human Jesus, God filled him with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…

The Holy Spirit is the same power God gives to believers in the laying on of hands after baptism. Stephen was full of this power.

Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit…

————————————–

again, you are implying that Jesus was spiritless when He was born. if man have spirit/soul during birth which in turn being sealed by the Holy Spirit (eph 1:13-14) for salvation then how come Jesus doesn’t have His own Spirit?

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

you are suggesting that God can be reduced to a man just like anybody else.

————————————–

I’m not suggesting. I’m reading the bible as is although the words used are “made a little lower” instead of “reduced”.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

The lowering did not make Jesus “a man just like anybody else” because he is the only one who, after becoming flesh, was a former God. Jesus’ being “like anybody else” is in his mortality. He was subject to death “just like anybody else”.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

in that case, he belongs to what paul called… to ‘all have sinned and came short of the glory of God…’ because flesh in its nature is sinful and enslaved to sin. without Jesus as God, He couldn’t withstand the desire of the flesh.

————————————–

We should not speculate on what is already clear in the bible and say that Jesus sinned because he was flesh. The bible is clear that Jesus did not sin.

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:22 “Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”…

Jesus was special and he is the only man who did not sin and he withstood “the desire of the flesh” because he was so close to the Father seeking and doing always the will of the Father.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

Jesus in the flesh was of course not immortal. the flesh will go to corruption just like anybody else. but His spirit, which in nature God, will not. that same Spirit has all the power of being God.

————————————–

The “His” I underlined in your statement should, hopefully, be the key to understanding.

Except for the Holy Spirit, the power, which is referred to as the spirit of Jesus and the Father, the Word had no spirit in order to exist because he, the Word, himself was the self existing spirit. This spirit, the Word, was changed to flesh (“became flesh”).

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

Jesus was one with the Father. Jesus spoke that while in the flesh and it wouldn’t separate that oneness even at that state. remember, as the ‘Father glorified the Son, so does the Son glorifies the Father’ at what ever state He was – either in the flesh or not.

————————————–

The oneness refers to the unity of purpose and not that Jesus was also the Father and that the Father was also Jesus.

If what you have in mind is that Jesus was also the Father and that the Father was also Jesus, you do have a problem indeed.

boxingfan529 wrote:

you forgot to quote this to blend that above:

Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

it’s no secret why Jesus is called Immanuel or God with us because Jesus was God in the flesh among His people.

————————————–

I see no problem with Jesus being called “God with us” because he really was a God being who, however, was lowered in nature to the level of mortals.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

the same person as called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. those verses from isaiah doesn’t suggest about any resurrected Christ but the child born by a virgin so your conclusion is somewhat incomplete.

————————————–

bf, don’t change the verse by stating “the same person as called”. 🙂

Jesus will have these titles when he already has the government of this earth “upon His shoulder”.

Isaiah 9:6…And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In this age, Jesus is hardly the “Prince of Peace”. On the contrary, his teachings, which could be understood only by the few, brought and still bring division, not peace, even among family members.

Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

also, how can He be the ‘Everlasting Father’ if there was a gap in between of being everlasting. it’s like saying, He was everlasting before being born in the flesh and then restored that everlasting nature when He was resurrected again. in other words, there is inconsistency if you apply your theory.

————————————–

My “theory” is there is no gap after Jesus’ restoration to his God nature of immortality through the resurrection from the dead. That’s why he will be called “Everlasting Father” in the future yet.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

actually, as we discuss and i answer through this thread, i am already pointing that to your questions.

————————————–

I’ll assume your answer to #1 as “yes”. Couldn’t you specifically answer the #2 and #3 questions head on?:

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

1. Is your understanding of “the Word became flesh” the Word remained as spirit which entered into a body?

2. If so, who is Jesus Christ in the combination?

3. When Jesus died, who or which part died?

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

as i have answered above, your theory is incomplete and inconsistent. also, how can you say He is not God in the flesh if in fact ‘He is God with US’? i think you can see the logic there.

————————————–

You might want to change your view that my “theory is incomplete and inconsistent” in light of my above explanations. But I won’t be surprised if you couldn’t.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

btw epi, do you believe in soul/spirit? does man has spirit/soul when born? if your answer is yes then you think Jesus was spiritless aside from being filled with the Spirit?

————————————–

I have for so many times made known my position that soul and spirit are different and one is not the other. So my answer to your question is no.

Jesus was the spirit who became flesh and for which reason God filled him with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1).

————————————–

Boxingfan529 wrote:

again, you are implying that Jesus was spiritless when He was born.

————————————–

Far from it bf. I did not imply “that Jesus was spiritless when He was born”.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit even when he was still in Mary’s womb. John the baptist was another still to be born who was already filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

if man have spirit/soul during birth which in turn being sealed by the Holy Spirit (eph 1:13-14) for salvation then how come Jesus doesn’t have His own Spirit?:)

————————————–

You are creating your own dilemma bf.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I’m not suggesting. I’m reading the bible as is although the words used are “made a little lower” instead of “reduced”.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

————————————–

The lowering did not make Jesus “a man just like anybody else” because he is the only one who, after becoming flesh, was a former God. Jesus’ being “like anybody else” is in his mortality. He was subject to death “just like anybody else”.

hebrews 2:9 defined death or ‘mortality’ as the only difference between Jesus and the angels but authority and power were still the same.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

We should not speculate on what is already clear in the bible and say that Jesus sinned because he was flesh. The bible is clear that Jesus did not sin.

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:22 “Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”…

Jesus was special and he is the only man who did not sin and he withstood “the desire of the flesh” because he was so close to the Father seeking and doing always the will of the Father.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

————————————–

that’s the point there. 🙂 He could not sin because His will was with the Father. no ordinary mortal can perfectly do good and follow God’s will if the person’s nature is not of God. that’s why Jesus was excepted from ‘all have come short…’ because He just cant blemish Himself of becoming unholy as a God. you got it right when you said He was indeed ‘special’.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The “His” I underlined in your statement should, hopefully, be the key to understanding.

Except for the Holy Spirit, the power, which is referred to as the spirit of Jesus and the Father, the Word had no spirit in order to exist because he, the Word, himself was the self existing spirit. This spirit, the Word, was changed to flesh (“became flesh”).

————————————–

that’s where our difference epi.

the ‘word become flesh’ doesn’t mean the flesh became spiritless. check this verse epi:

matt 27:50

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

i think, the the verse above is self-explanatory. that Spirit He gave up was His own Spirit.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The oneness refers to the unity of purpose and not that Jesus was also the Father and that the Father was also Jesus.

If what you have in mind is that Jesus was also the Father and that the Father was also Jesus, you do have a problem indeed.

————————————–

i think, you believe too that there is only ONE God. that’s the meaning of being one. that’s the reason why the pharisees tried to kill Him because He was saying that He was being equal with the father.

John 10:38

But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles. that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father”.

but before that verse, Jesus was accused of blasphemy

John 10:33

“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

… and for that, Jesus didn’t object. as a mere man, Jesus claimed to be God. He insisted that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. clearly, it doesn’t say just ‘unity of purpose’. the verses said it all. 🙂

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I see no problem with Jesus being called “God with us” because he really was a God being who, however, was lowered in nature to the level of mortals.

————————————–

alright, you yourself said it. Jesus was God in the flesh because that’s the reason for the name ‘Immanuel’. the man Jesus was God in the flesh.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Jesus will have these titles when he already has the government of this earth “upon His shoulder”.

Isaiah 9:6…And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In this age, Jesus is hardly the “Prince of Peace”. On the contrary, his teachings, which could be understood only by the few, brought and still bring division, not peace, even among family members.

Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

————————————–

my point there is the name ‘Immanuel’ being ‘God with us’. the previous verses on John acknowledged that. Jesus Himself acknowledged it directly.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

My “theory” is there is no gap after Jesus’ restoration to his God nature of immortality through the resurrection from the dead. That’s why he will be called “Everlasting Father” in the future yet.

————————————–

that theory already contradicted the meaning of everlasting. Jehovah God in the Old Testament is said to be ‘from everlasting to everlasting, though art God’. God didn’t started to be everlasting from just any point of time because He is God from the very beginning of everlasting.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

You might want to change your view that my “theory is incomplete and inconsistent” in light of my above explanations. But I won’t be surprised if you couldn’t.

————————————–

i hope you are open also to the verses and explanation i gave about it being incomplete and inconsistent by now.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I have for so many times made known my position that soul and spirit are different and one is not the other. So my answer to your question is no.

Jesus was the spirit who became flesh and for which reason God filled him with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1).

————————————–

but based on my verses i gave above, Jesus has His own spirit…..

matt 27:50

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Far from it bf. I did not imply “that Jesus was spiritless when He was born”.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit even when he was still in Mary’s womb. John the baptist was another still to be born who was already filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

————————————–

again matt 27:50

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

You are creating your own dilemma bf.

————————————–

it’s not a dilemma. in fact, it just answered that Jesus had spirit of His own while in the flesh as the bible said it so.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

hebrews 2:9 defined death or ‘mortality’ as the only difference between Jesus and the angels but authority and power were still the same.

————————————–

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

that’s the point there. 🙂 He could not sin because His will was with the Father. no ordinary mortal can perfectly do good and follow God’s will if the person’s nature is not of God. that’s why Jesus was excepted from ‘all have come short…’ because He just cant blemish Himself of becoming unholy as a God. you got it right when you said He was indeed ‘special’. 🙂

————————————–

Your statement “He just cant blemish Himself of becoming unholy as a God” clashes with the bible which states that Jesus took upon himself the sin of mankind that he became sin for man.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us…

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

that’s where our difference epi.

the ‘word become flesh’ doesn’t mean the flesh became spiritless. check this verse epi:

matt 27:50

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

i think, the the verse above is self-explanatory. that Spirit He gave up was His own Spirit.

————————————–

Not really. As a man, Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. That’s what he gave up.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

i think, you believe too that there is only ONE God. that’s the meaning of being one. that’s the reason why the pharisees tried to kill Him because He was saying that He was being equal with the father.

John 10:38

But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles. that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father”.

but before that verse, Jesus was accused of blasphemy

John 10:33

“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

… and for that, Jesus didn’t object. as a mere man, Jesus claimed to be God. He insisted that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. clearly, it doesn’t say just ‘unity of purpose’. the verses said it all.

————————————–

God is a family. Family members have separate existence.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

alright, you yourself said it. Jesus was God in the flesh because that’s the reason for the name ‘Immanuel’. the man Jesus was God in the flesh.

————————————–

You miss the “was” in the phrase “he really was a God being until he emptied himself of that nature.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

my point there is the name ‘Immanuel’ being ‘God with us’. the previous verses on John acknowledged that. Jesus Himself acknowledged it directly.

————————————–

You are mistaking the name for the nature which is the issue. That Jesus was mortal.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

that theory already contradicted the meaning of everlasting. Jehovah God in the Old Testament is said to be ‘from everlasting to everlasting, though art God’. God didn’t started to be everlasting from just any point of time because He is God from the very beginning of everlasting.

————————————–

When the Logos, the spokesperson, who is YHWH speaks to men, the “I”, “Me”, “My” and “Mine” refer to the God family and not only of himself. When YHWH and the Father talk among themselves, the “Us” or “Our” is used.

God, referring to the Father, did not cease being God.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

i hope you are open also to the verses and explanation i gave about it being incomplete and inconsistent by now.

It’s alright if you don’t want to answer questions #2 & 3.

boxingfan529 wrote:

but based on my verses i gave above, Jesus has His own spirit…..

matt 27:50

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

————————————–

You avoided his having been filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1).

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

it’s not a dilemma. in fact, it just answered that Jesus had spirit of His own while in the flesh as the bible said it so.

————————————–

You insist Jesus “had spirit of His own” and by this you mean the Word. The Word, which is spirit, entered into a human body. The dilemma is Jesus was still filled with the Holy Spirit. So there are now two spirits inside the body.

boxingfan529: epi, this discussion all conclude in this verse (i need not to include the other points).

matt 27:50

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

the point is that He was His own Spirit just like man when he dies gives up his soul/spirit to be judged by God. you say there are two spirits in Christ? then there is two spirits (spirit and soul can be the same as used in the old testament) too that a believer have but what he gives up when he dies is his own

EMA: Actually you have ended the discussion by not answering questions #2 & 3 above.

Btw, which bible verse is it that says Jesus is “to be judged by God”?

boxingfan529: as i have said, with my lengthy answers, i have answered them already.

hebrews already said it.. it is appointed that man will die once, after that judgment.

paul too said, in the absence in the body is the presence with the Lord.

and many other verses..

EMA: You stated “He (Jesus) was His own Spirit just like man when he dies gives up his soul/spirit to be judged by God”, aren’t you saying that the Word actually remained as spirit?

And as my last question to you: Didn’t the Word die?

boxingfan529: as matt 27:50 states, the word remained a Spirit in the flesh.

the flesh only died. when Christ gave up the Spirit, the Spirit never died. the shedding of the blood was enough for those who believe to be saved. one example is the sin offering from moses law, the lamb was enough to cleanse the sins of the one who offered it. the lamb had no soul nor spirit.

Hebrews 9:22

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

EMA: In short, your position is that the Word did not die. The Word was never slain. Wasn’t he?

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

one example is the sin offering from moses law, the lamb was enough to cleanse the sins of the one who offered it.

————————————–

Are you sure bf that in “the sin offering from moses law, [u]the lamb was enough to cleanse the sins of the one who offered it”?

boxingfan529: the lamb is just one of them (though in the new testament primarily pictured Jesus as a lamb). during the Old Testament, if one followed correctly in every details of all the procedures for sin cleansing which includes sin offering and all the other offerings. but of course it needs to be done year after year or as the law requires. that’s the reason Christ came to die once and for all so that that ritual will never be repeated again. the point is, without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness.

EMA: The question is simple from your own statement bf. “did the blood of the lamb as sin offering from Moses’ law “cleanse the sins of the one who offered it?”

boxingfan529: yes. if we assume that the person who offered did all the necessary procedures as commanded in the law. but it only the present and past sins and not like Jesus who died once and for all for the sins of the world.

EMA: You might have overlooked this question bf:

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

In short, your position is that the Word did not die. The Word was never slain. Was he?

boxingfan529: as i have said, the flesh of Jesus died but not the Spirit as i have explained it. i think i have exhausted enough information for all your questions from the scriptures.

so this is my closing statement, the scriptures teaches about Christ as God with the Spirit in Him even in the flesh. Jesus’ death in the cross physically was enough already for the sins of the world as required by the law. He Himself fulfilled the law just as He said He would. If He didn’t died physically and without the shedding of the blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. that death once and for all performed what the old testament yearly (or how the law required) offerings produced. His Spirit never died because it was not required and a God (in the Spirit) tasting death is not biblical and illogical.

EMA: It’s alright if this is your “closing statement”. It better be because your position is that Jesus Christ did not really die. To you the Word, also known as Lamb, was not slain negating Revelation 13:8 because the Word just got inside a human body which died.

You avoided answering questions #2 & 3 because you would have a problem in Jesus’ resurrection where the bible states that the dead Jesus buried in the tomb became a life giving spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

If you believe that the Word who was spirit remained as spirit and escaped the body when Jesus died, then you’ll be confronted with the problem where there will be two spirits in the resurrected Jesus. That one which did not become flesh and the flesh which became spirit again.

Paul declares that the fact of Christ’s death is of first importance:

1 Corinthians 15:3 (NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died…

Otherwise, one’s belief would be in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:1 (NIV) Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

boxingfan529: epi. i have answered your questions already. you just try to avoid my answers and neglected by points.

you said, “If you believe that the Word who was spirit remained as spirit and escaped the body when Jesus died, then you’ll be confronted with the problem where there will be two spirits in the resurrected Jesus. That one which did not become flesh and the flesh which became spirit again.” the bolded one is incorrect. how can the flesh be spirit again when in fact, it was already a spirit in the first place. you have no biblical point for that. 🙁 the word become flesh doesn’t mean the Spirit was not present but the fact is, when He DIED (i want i emphasize this) He gave up HIS own Spirit. like a believer, he has his own spirit and since he is God’s own, the Holy Spirit is with him too as a seal of ownership. Christ as God in Spirit can fellowship with the Holy Spirit as the Father is in Him and He with the Father. there’s no conflict in there. those who believe the purpose of Christ death is not in vain. i hope you see the flaws of your argument.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

yes. if we assume that the person who offered did all the necessary procedures as commanded in the law. but it only the present and past sins and not like Jesus who died once and for all for the sins of the world.

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So the sin of the one who offered the sacrifice cleansed by the blood of the lamb or bull needed no longer be cleansed by the blood of Christ?

boxingfan529: those from the old testament never knew that what they were doing was a reflection of the death of Christ in the future. at that point of time, they believed that their sacrifice was enough to cleansed them from their sin. in the new testament, it is farther explained that what they have done was indeed reflected that to the cross in calvary. do you see the logic or should i expound it more.

EMA: No. Please bf, don’t expound an erroneous teaching.

You said “yes” and confirmed your position that the blood of animals sacrificed under Moses’s law cleansed the sins of the one who made the offering. The bible says the opposite.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins…11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

epi. i have answered your questions already. you just try to avoid my answers and neglected by points.

you said, “If you believe that the Word who was spirit remained as spirit and escaped the body when Jesus died, then you’ll be confronted with the problem where there will be two spirits in the resurrected Jesus. That one which did not become flesh and the flesh which became spirit again.” the bolded one is incorrect. how can the flesh be spirit again when in fact, it was already a spirit in the first place. you have no biblical point for that. 🙁 the word become flesh doesn’t mean the Spirit was not present but the fact is, when He DIED (i want i emphasize this) He gave up HIS own Spirit.

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Why do you say “the bolded one (That one which did not become flesh and the flesh which became spirit again) is incorrect” when it is your position that the Word remained as spirit in a human body? That this spirit Word did not die being a spirit?

The problem really is understanding the changes which happened to the Word from spirit to flesh to spirit. The crucial word is “became”.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…

After the flesh died, this flesh was again changed, became a spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45…The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.

This is the only case where one can say that Jesus Christ died.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

like a believer, he has his own spirit and since he is God’s own, the Holy Spirit is with him too as a seal of ownership. Christ as God in Spirit can fellowship with the Holy Spirit as the Father is in Him and He with the Father. there’s no conflict in there. those who believe the purpose of Christ death is not in vain. i hope you see the flaws of your argument.

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These phrases are strange to me:

1. “the Holy Spirit is with him too as a seal of ownership”; and

2. “Christ as God in Spirit can fellowship with the Holy Spirit”.

Anyway, you have already stated your “closing statement” and it boils down to the Word not having been slain.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

No. Please bf, don’t expound an erroneous teaching.

You said “yes” and confirmed your position that the blood of animals sacrificed under Moses’s law cleansed the sins of the one who made the offering. The bible says the opposite.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins…11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

————————————–

as i have said, based on the point of view of the old testament believers, their offering were enough for their cleansing. hebrews is in the new testament that teaches us today that their offering in OT was just a reflection of Christ’s act in the cross.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Why do you say “the bolded one (That one which did not become flesh and the flesh which became spirit again) is incorrect” when it is your position that the Word remained as spirit in a human body? That this spirit Word did not die being a spirit?

The problem really is understanding the changes which happened to the Word from spirit to flesh to spirit. The crucial word is “became”.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…

After the flesh died, this flesh was again changed, became a spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45…The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.

This is the only case where one can say that Jesus Christ died.

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what is incorrect is “the flesh which became spirit again”. again, you are implying that Jesus in the flesh was spiritless.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

These phrases are strange to me:

1. “the Holy Spirit is with him too as a seal of ownership”; and

2. “Christ as God in Spirit can fellowship with the Holy Spirit”.

Anyway, you have already stated your “closing statement” and it boils down to the Word not having been slain.

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epi, i thought you were open to the scriptures but i am mistaken.

i dont have to convince you but just remember:

1. that the death of Christ in the flesh was enough for forgiveness of mankind’s sins with the shedding of the blood as a requirement.

2. when He died He gave up His very own Spirit. there is no verse that directly support your theory that Jesus the man was spiritless but instead it says otherwise.

3. His attributes as man said it all – Holy, Righteous, Just, Loving, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, etc. except that of being in a corruptible body. but of course, He was in the flesh. 🙂 being Holy is a choice, but because He was God He was sinless and maintained that holiness. His being omnipresent was displayed in John1 when He called natanael to be His disciple. He saw him under the fig tree when natanael’s brother called and told him about Jesus.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

as i have said, based on the point of view of the old testament believers, their offering were enough for their cleansing. hebrews is in the new testament that teaches us today that their offering in OT was just a reflection of Christ’s act in the cross.

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So you are saying you did not understand my question? Anyway my previous question which you categorically answered is clear.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

what is incorrect is “the flesh which became spirit again”. again, you are implying that Jesus in the flesh was spiritless.

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The bible is clear bf.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

epi, i thought you were open to the scriptures but i am mistaken.

i dont have to convince you but just remember:

1. that the death of Christ in the flesh was enough for forgiveness of mankind’s sins with the shedding of the blood as a requirement.

2. when He died He gave up His very own Spirit. there is no verse that directly support your theory that Jesus the man was spiritless but instead it says otherwise.

3. His attributes as man said it all – Holy, Righteous, Just, Loving, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, etc. except that of being in a corruptible body. but of course, He was in the flesh. 🙂 being Holy is a choice, but because He was God He was sinless and maintained that holiness. His being omnipresent was displayed in John1 when He called natanael to be His disciple. He saw him under the fig tree when natanael’s brother called and told him about Jesus.

————————————–

So to you I’m the one who is not “open to the scriptures”.

Let’s reduce our discussion to one question and one answer. Did the Word die?

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

So you are saying you did not understand my question? Anyway my previous question which you categorically answered is clear.

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i think you did not understood my reply.

to rephrase it:

1) from the old testament, the burnt and sin offerings plus their faith in it were enough to cleanse them from their sins as commanded by the law of moses.

2) in the new testament, shows that those old testament practices reflects that of Christ death in the cross.

3) the old testament rituals signifies that as they believe that their offerings were for cleansing, it is as equivalent today that Christ death is in the same effect for sin cleansing.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The bible is clear bf.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

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even that verse, the last adam is spirit Himself. it doesn’t mean the last adam in the flesh was spiritless.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

So to you I’m the one who is not “open to the scriptures”.

Let’s reduce our discussion to one question and one answer. Did the Word die?

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you still dont get it.

the Word that became flesh died but never in the scriptures said the Spirit died too. in fact, Jesus gave up the Spirit in His death.

now, answer this. where in the scriptures that says that Jesus the man has no spirit? let’s see if it will override the matt verse:

Matthew 27:50

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

Well, I’ll not force you to change your understanding of “became” in the phrase “became a life-giving spirit”.

————————————–

To the others, I say that in a resurrection, there is a change that occurs and this is the change from flesh, the natural body, to spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

To maintain the erroneous belief that the Spirit Word remained as such spirit and escaped the body which died is to be confronted with the problem where there will be two Jesus Christs at Jesus’ resurrection. One that escaped at death and the body which died and turned to spirit.

Further, if the Word remained as spirit, he cannot be said to have been buried and have been raised from the dead if he did not undergo these two events.

In short, this belief says that the Word did not die which is contrary to scripture.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

you still dont get it.

the Word that became flesh died but never in the scriptures said the Spirit died too. in fact, Jesus gave up the Spirit in His death.

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I get your point and it is not what the bible says.

You were already in the right course when your said “the Word that became flesh died” but betray your understanding by adding “never in the scriptures said the Spirit died too”.

Why look for the spirit when the bible clearly states that it has been turned into flesh?

Everyone who dies, and this includes Jesus, gives up his spirit (breath). The Holy Spirit indwelt person who dies naturally gives up also this power of God at death.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

now, answer this. where in the scriptures that says that Jesus the man has no spirit? let’s see if it will override the matt verse:

Matthew 27:50

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

————————————–

The phrase is simple enough, “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14). It is the spirit which was converted or changed to flesh.

This being the case, God filled the flesh with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1). This is the spirit Jesus gave up at his death.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

i think you did not understood my reply.

to rephrase it:

1) from the old testament, the burnt and sin offerings plus their faith in it were enough to cleanse them from their sins as commanded by the law of moses.

2) in the new testament, shows that those old testament practices reflects that of Christ death in the cross.

3) the old testament rituals signifies that as they believe that their offerings were for cleansing, it is as equivalent today that Christ death is in the same effect for sin cleansing.

————————————–

I understood your reply. And it is that the sacrifice of animals cleanses the sin of the one offering the sacrifice. And you reiterated this with your #1 above.

This is incorrect. No blood of any animal could pay for even a small sin. It’s impossible as Hebrews point out.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Well, I’ll not force you to change your understanding of “became” in the phrase “became a life-giving spirit”.

To the others, I say that in a resurrection, there is a change that occurs and this is the change from flesh, the natural body, to spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

To maintain the erroneous belief that the Spirit Word remained as such spirit and escaped the body which died is to be confronted with the problem where there will be two Jesus Christs at Jesus’ resurrection. One that escaped at death and the body which died and turned to spirit.

Further, if the Word remained as spirit, he cannot be said to have been buried and have been raised from the dead if he did not undergo these two events.

In short, this belief says that the Word did not die which is contrary to scripture.

————————————–

the last adam being mentioned there is not even specified as the resurrected Christ. you’re just assuming it based on your belief. 🙂

btw, do you believe that man has soul or spirit if i may ask? 🙂 i might be assuming differently at this point of this discussion. 😆

there is only one Jesus. just like anybody else, when one dies, the flesh decompose and the soul/spirit leaves the body. that’s the case too with Jesus. when He died, His spirit leave His physical body.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The phrase is simple enough, “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14). It is the spirit which was converted or changed to flesh.

This being the case, God filled the flesh with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1). This is the spirit Jesus gave up at his death.

————————————–

again, do you believe that man has a soul/spirit? if you dont believe that then it is hard for you to accept that the physical Jesus had His own Spirit.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I understood your reply. And it is that the sacrifice of animals cleanses the sin of the one offering the sacrifice. And you reiterated this with your #1 above.

This is incorrect. No blood of any animal could pay for even a small sin. It’s impossible as Hebrews point out.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

————————————–

remove hebrews on the time of the old testament and you have a law God wants His people to follow. obedience is important to God and it is what signifies you true faith to you God. you just cant say i believe it but do otherwise.

when the new testament came, it was clear that what the law points to was Jesus Christ as its fulfillment. their sacrifices in the old testament were not in vain because they were doing what God wants them to do for cleansing. it was equivalent as believing in Christ death on the cross even if that act of Christ haven’t occurred yet. that’s why i said that it was a reflection – mirror of what is yet to come.

EMA: The issue is not following “a law God wants His people to follow” but whether or not the blood of animals sacrificed cleansed sins. The bible answer is no, “it is not possible”.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

the last adam being mentioned there is not even specified as the resurrected Christ. you’re just assuming it based on your belief.

————————————–

So you don’t know that the last Adam Paul referred to is Jesus Christ. That’s really a problem.

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

btw, do you believe that man has soul or spirit if i may ask? i might be assuming differently at this point of this discussion.

————————————–

If after these years you still don’t know my position on soul and spirit which I recently discussed with Admerald, I don’t think I will ever get it across.

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boxingfan529 wrote:

there is only one Jesus. just like anybody else, when one dies, the flesh decompose and the soul/spirit leaves the body. that’s the case too with Jesus. when He died, His spirit leave His physical body.

————————————–

I’ll put the question this way. Did the Word remain as spirit when “the Word became flesh”?

————————————–

boxingfan529 wrote:

again, do you believe that man has a soul/spirit? if you dont believe that then it is hard for you to accept that the physical Jesus had His own Spirit.

————————————–

Actually, the question you need to answer is what do you understand by “became” or turned into?

equalizer: Tanong po uli.

When he came back to life, why He has still those wounds on his hands?

It was written that everything will become new and perfect to us, right?

Pacland’s list: and also why hes heart has tinik-tinik

EMA: The resurrected Jesus was spirit, hence, not flesh and bones. No “wounds on his hands”. The one who came up with the rendition of one who’s “heart has tinik-tinik” should explain it.

That Jesus showed himself to his disciples in flesh and bones was for his still unbelieving disciples to recognize him as Jesus who was killed and who has since been raised from the dead. My explanation is on page 7 of this thread, the 2nd post.

EMA: don robert wrote:

Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God. This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God. What can you say about this “scenario”, Mang Epi?

————————————–

I missed this part of don robert’s previous question (on page 4) so I’m addressing this now.

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don robert wrote:

Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God.

————————————–

No, it’s not possible that man can reconcile himself back to God. The initiative is not man’s but God’s. Man is powerless to make the reconciliation.

The Garden of Eden is still guarded, figuratively, by cherubim so that man cannot access the source of the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

————————————–

don robert wrote:

This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God.

————————————–

The phrase “God cannot ‘reconcile’ man on His own” could mislead the reader to think God is powerless to “reconcile man on His own”. Not so.

Reconciliation and man’s salvation were conceived and agreed upon long before man was created that it could be said that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

YHWH, the being who became Jesus Christ, was the God being who implemented the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. For God to expel man who sinned in the meantime, cleanse him later and then reconcile him to God does not give place to contradicting God’s acts.

BillyShears: did Hercules really die?

edmendoza001: Dolphy the Hercules did!

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Nothing personal in exchanges of ideas don. Besides, one should live his belief and not merely mouth it.

————————————–

I missed to reply on this one, Mang Epi. I agree with you. Words and deeds go hand in hand. Just like faith and works (not faith alone).

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

So the enlightenment is just on how I explain myself and not really on what I explained. To subscribe to the idea heard surely is another matter.

I disagree that it is “the lawyer in” me which enables me “knit” my way through “different verses to support” the “idea”. I ascribe it to understanding the subject.

————————————–

I seem to have “struck a nerve” there, Mang Epi.

I may be “enlightened” by your explanation, on where you are going with your explantion or what you are pointing at, but I do not have to subscribe to it.

The lawyer-in-you I was referring to was how you present your case, how you “knit your way through different verses”. It’s a gift. Irregardless if you believe what you say or not.

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The scripture does not “say Jesus resurrected in body”. It says the opposite – spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.

As spirit, one can manifest into a human body form. The OT is replete with angels manifesting as humans and seen by the people to whom they were sent to by God. YHWH manifested himself as the Commander of the LORD’s army to Joshua. Etc.

That the resurrected Jesus showed his body to be touched by the still unconverted disciples was for them to recognize him.

————————————–

John 6

39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.”

John 20: 27

20 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”

Doesn’t these verses show Mang Epi that JC will and did resurrect in flesh too? This is but one of the things I don’t fully subscribe with your view on “resurrection”.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.

The quote on Corinthians does not say that JC resurrected “only” in the spirit. The verse explores the similarities and differences between the two Adams, with the second Adam, JC, a “life-giver”.

EMA: No, resurrection is clearly a change from the natural body, which is flesh or dust when long dead, to spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

As I’ve posted, “That the resurrected Jesus showed his body to be touched by the still unconverted disciples was for them to recognize him”.

don robert: Mang Epi, now I’m getting more interested.

In comparing the two Adams in 1 Cor 15:45, how would we interpret it since both Adams are different — one was made out of clay, while the other was conceived by “body and spirit”? How can 1 Cor 15:44 pertain to JC, since His is not of “natural body” like Adam was?

The theology behind 1 Cor is about the resurrection of man, which some of the Corinthians are denying the resurrection of the dead. Thus, the chapter is not about the resurrection of JC in spirit. It does not even mention that JC resurrected ONLY in spirit. By taking “life-giving spirit” as JC resurrecting ONLY in spirit is adding what is not there.

And if the resurrection is “clearly” a change from the natural body, where was the flesh of JC? Why was it not found in the tomb? Was it ever mentioned in the scriptures that the “flesh body” of JC was taken or kept by anybody? Even the four gospels did not assert that JC resurrected in the spirit only.

EMA: don robert wrote:

I seem to have “struck a nerve” there, Mang Epi.

I may be “enlightened” by your explanation, on where you are going with your explantion or what you are pointing at, but I do not have to subscribe to it.

————————————–

Thanks anyway for the compliment.

I very well know that accepting my explanation is a very different matter.

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don robert wrote:

The lawyer-in-you I was referring to was how you present your case, how you “knit your way through different verses”. It’s a gift. Irregardless if you believe what you say or not.

————————————–

I believe what I’m saying.

As to my being a lawyer, I just feel good thinking that Jesus Christ now in heaven functions as the believers’ advocate or lawyer.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

EMA: don robert wrote:

Mang Epi, now I’m getting more interested.

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I’m glad you are. Otherwise, you’ll not be able to ask sensible questions.

————————————–

don robert wrote:

In comparing the two Adams in 1 Cor 15:45, how would we interpret it since both Adams are different — one was made out of clay, while the other was conceived by “body and spirit”?

————————————–

While Adam and Jesus differed in their origins and what became of them, they were the same as flesh and bones and blood. They both had the natural body which was corruptible and mortal. Both were subject to death and needed to be resurrected when they die.

The comparison in 1 Corinthians 15:45 between Adam and Jesus Christ (last Adam) is on their origins and what became of them that would also happen to man. While man acquired Adam’s attributes of being of the dust which returns to dust, man has that potential to likewise acquire the resurrected Jesus’ attribute of being spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

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don robert wrote:

How can 1 Cor 15:44 pertain to JC, since His is not of “natural body” like Adam was?

————————————–

He became a natural body (John 1:14) for the purpose of death (Hebrews 2:9). He was a “‘natural body’ like Adam was”. Like us, Jesus needed to eat for nourishment, rest, sleep, exercise, and subject to death.

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don robert wrote:

The theology behind 1 Cor is about the resurrection of man, which some of the Corinthians are denying the resurrection of the dead. Thus, the chapter is not about the resurrection of JC in spirit.

————————————–

1 Corinthians 15 pertains to Jesus Christ who became flesh, died and raised from the dead. This chapter is about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to spirit of which resurrection man could look forward to also happen to him when he dies.

This chapter is also about the contrast between the natural body and the spiritual body?

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

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don robert wrote:

It does not even mention that JC resurrected ONLY in spirit. By taking “life-giving spirit” as JC resurrecting ONLY in spirit is adding what is not there.

————————————–

Having known the contrast between the natural body and the spiritual, and that verse 45 clearly states Jesus’ changed (“became”) to spirit, adding flesh and bones to a resurrected Christ is the “adding (of) what is not there”.

don robert wrote:

And if the resurrection is “clearly” a change from the natural body, where was the flesh of JC? Why was it not found in the tomb?

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You’ve just stated the word “change”. The flesh was changed to spirit. Hence, don’t anymore look for what is no longer there.

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don robert wrote:

Was it ever mentioned in the scriptures that the “flesh body” of JC was taken or kept by anybody?

————————————–

Obviously not. It has been changed to spirit.

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don robert wrote:

Even the four gospels did not assert that JC resurrected in the spirit only.

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As pointed out, resurrection is change from the natural to spiritual body. No more flesh and bones to a spirit who, however, can manifest as flesh and bones as he wills.

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

While Adam and Jesus differed in their origins and what became of them, they were the same as flesh and bones and blood. They both had the natural body which was corruptible and mortal. Both were subject to death and needed to be resurrected when they die.

The comparison in 1 Corinthians 15:45 between Adam and Jesus Christ (last Adam) is on their origins and what became of them that would also happen to man. While man acquired Adam’s attributes of being of the dust which returns to dust, man has that potential to likewise acquire the resurrected Jesus’ attribute of being spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

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The way I understand 1 Cor 15:45 is parallel to the teaching of Paul in 1 Cor 3, wherein he said “1 Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.”. Paul employs the concept of Flesh and Spirit, or which would be referred to in later theology as “natural” and “supernatural”. The “fleshy people” refers to man’s natural principles, which are referred by Paul as “infants” as their knowledge remain in purely human level (devoid of the Holy Spirit). But man is called to a higher principle — God’s spirit. That man is to become spiritual and mature in perceptions. To which the culmination of existence in the Spirit is thus described in 1 Cor 15:44-49.

Thus, 1 Cor 15:45 come to mind that Adam, who became a “living being” which too had the Spirit, DIED because of sin. And that JC, the last Adam, became the “life-giving spirit”, as it is only through JC that resurrection is possible. The first Adam gave as death, the second Adam, gave us life. That’s the gist of 1 Cor 15:45.

Like I said, to claim that 1 Cor 15:45 defines JC as resurrecting ONLY in Spirit is what is adding to the bible, Mang Epi. :biglaugh:

We must bear in mind that Jesus is God. He can both choose to manifest Himself in flesh or spirit. But nothing can be more “fleshy” when Jesus showed his wounds to his disciple, most of all to doubting Thomas. No amount of explanation can debunk that Jesus resurrected in the flesh AND spirit. The four gospels does not say Jesus resurrected in Spirit only, and John wrote that there was the flesh for the disciples to see and touch.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

You’ve just stated the word “change”. The flesh was changed to spirit. Hence, don’t anymore look for what is no longer there.

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Is the “change” that shows Christ’s natural body transforming to Spirit, written in the 4 Gospels, Mang Epi, to support your theory on JC’s “change” from body to spirit?

EMA: don robert wrote:

The way I understand 1 Cor 15:45 is parallel to the teaching of Paul in 1 Cor 3, wherein he said “1 Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.”.

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1 Cor 3 is of another subject matter – spiritual character growth.

While 1 Cor 15 talks about the actual difference between a natural body (flesh and bones) and the spiritual body and the change of the nature of a person which occurs at his resurrection, 1 Cor 3 refers to the behavior, the mental frame, the attitude of a person who has been imbued with the Holy Spirit of God which made him a Christian (Romans 8:9).

The Corinthian Christians’ conduct was likened by Paul to that of infants, immature, as they were still acting carnally, that is, as if they had no Holy Spirit in them.

1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Paul could not teach them the more advanced doctrines (solid food) because their attitude shows that they could only take or understand the elementary level teachings (milk).

1 Corinthians 3:2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

So he continues to talk to them as if they were still babes in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

While 1 Cor 3 is about the frame of mind (carnal or spiritual), 1 Cor 15 is about the nature of one’s body (natural or spiritual body).

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don robert wrote:

Paul employs the concept of Flesh and Spirit, or which would be referred to in later theology as “natural” and “supernatural”. The “fleshy people” refers to man’s natural principles, which are referred by Paul as “infants” as their knowledge remain in purely human level (devoid of the Holy Spirit).

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As pointed out, the infants are the still immature Christians and the persons Paul were addressing in 1 Cor 3 are all Holy Spirit imbued. A person who is “devoid of the Holy Spirit” is not a Christian, not Christ’s, and could not have been included in the group which Paul addressed as “brethren” (1 Corinthians 3:1).

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

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don robert wrote:

But man is called to a higher principle — God’s spirit. That man is to become spiritual and mature in perceptions. To which the culmination of existence in the Spirit is thus described in 1 Cor 15:44-49.

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You are right as to character development in stating “That man is to become spiritual and mature in perceptions”. This is the image of God being developed in man.

But the spirit spoken of in 1 Cor 15 is the nature of his body, of what man is to become, and this is the change from being physical or natural to spirit. This is when man will become in the likeness of God.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

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don robert wrote:

Thus, 1 Cor 15:45 come to mind that Adam, who became a “living being” which too had the Spirit, DIED because of sin.

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While Adam had the spirit of man which is common to all men, he had no Holy Spirit in Him. He failed to be so imbued when he did not eat of the tree of life in the Garden of Eden.

Adam became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils (Genesis 2:7).

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don robert wrote:

And that JC, the last Adam, became the “life-giving spirit”, as it is only through JC that resurrection is possible.

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The phrase “it is only through JC that resurrection is possible” is true for mankind in general. As to Jesus Christ, his own resurrection was made possible by God the Father.

Acts 13:30 But God raised Him (Jesus Christ) from the dead.

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don robert wrote:

The first Adam gave as death,

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Not so. Sin does.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…

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don robert wrote:

the second Adam, gave us life. That’s the gist of 1 Cor 15:45.

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As of today, those who have received the Holy Spirit of God received only the guarantee of eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

The fullness of eternal life comes only when man is changed from physical to spirit.

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don robert wrote:

Like I said, to claim that 1 Cor 15:45 defines JC as resurrecting ONLY in Spirit is what is adding to the bible, Mang Epi.

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The verses preceding verse 45 clearly show the contrast between the natural and the spiritual body. One cannot be, or does not include, the other.

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don robert wrote:

We must bear in mind that Jesus is God. He can both choose to manifest Himself in flesh or spirit.

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Jesus is now God as he was before he became flesh. He manifested as flesh to Abraham, Joshua and Israel, among others.

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don robert wrote:

But nothing can be more “fleshy” when Jesus showed his wounds to his disciple, most of all to doubting Thomas. No amount of explanation can debunk that Jesus resurrected in the flesh AND spirit.

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I have no problem if you maintain your position “that Jesus resurrected in the flesh AND spirit”.

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don robert wrote:

The four gospels does not say Jesus resurrected in Spirit only, and John wrote that there was the flesh for the disciples to see and touch.

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So what if “The four gospels does not say Jesus resurrected in Spirit only”? It is Paul who is describing the resurrection in detail.

John also refers to the resurrection or change to spirit as one’s birth into the kingdom of God. While man who is born of the flesh is flesh, he who is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus resurrection from the dead is described as birth and for which reason Jesus is considered the firstborn of all creation. He is the only man so far to have been resurrected to spirit from the dead.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation…18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

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don robert wrote:

Is the “change” that shows Christ’s natural body transforming to Spirit, written in the 4 Gospels, Mang Epi, to support your theory on JC’s “change” from body to spirit?

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I haven’t read in the accounts (not gospels) of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John about “JC’s “change” from body to spirit”. Their objectives could be different from Paul’s in this respect.

Is Paul not enough to you don?

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The issue is not following “a law God wants His people to follow” but whether or not the blood of animals sacrificed cleansed sins. The bible answer is no, “it is not possible”.

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sorry for this late reply… bz lang sa trabaho…

in the case of Christ as the lamb of God who takes the sins of the world signifies that the old testament believers were correct in believing that doing the law concerning the sin and burnt offering. again, it was only in the new testament that explained that old testament offerings were a reflection of Christ death. between the two, faith is the common ingredient to fulfill that cleansing.

boxingfan529: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

So you don’t know that the last Adam Paul referred to is Jesus Christ. That’s really a problem.

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atorni naman, i just said He was not specifically mentioned the resurrected Christ in that verse. i didn’t said He was not the Christ. i said so because you were defending about Christ as spirit but on that verse He could have been in the flesh too before His resurrection. so you cant use that verse for your argument because it’s open ended in terms of interpretation. now, if we mention elijah, he was taken by God alive. even on those days, God (Christ) was already a life-giving spirit (life there as eternal life).

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

If after these years you still don’t know my position on soul and spirit which I recently discussed with Admerald, I don’t think I will ever get it across.

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i dont read all threads here epi. you can briefly share with me that belief of yours.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I’ll put the question this way. Did the Word remain as spirit when “the Word became flesh”?

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yes, the word remained as spirit in the flesh as He gave up His spirit when He died as everybody does. abraham gave up his spirit when he died so does Jesus when He died in the cross.

Gen 25:8 And Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years, and was gathered to his people.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Actually, the question you need to answer is what do you understand by “became” or turned into?

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it’s an open-ended verse epi. we can interpret that many different times but it is clearly said in the bible that when Christ died, He gave up HIS Spirit. ‘His Spirit’ changes your argument about your understanding of that ‘became’.

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

So what if “The four gospels does not say Jesus resurrected in Spirit only”? It is Paul who is describing the resurrection in detail.

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I have no problem on how Paul explains

resurrection. But Paul did not say that Jesus resurrected in the spirit ONLY. The Four Gospels (it seems you don’t adhere to them as such) did not mention that Jesus resurrected in the Spirit ONLY. In John, it is very clearly written that Jesus resurrected in the flesh too, when he showed His (fresh) wounds to Thomas and the others.

I think, as a lawyer Mang Epi, you believe in Habeas Corpus. If Jesus did not resurrect in the flesh, where is the (dead) body? Habeas Corpus. Produce the body. And, how can you say that there was a “change” (body to spirit) when you have no proof of that change (or the process)?

In reality, as witnessed by several people, the body was produced, with written accounts by John. This, IMO, dispels your theory on the resurrection of JC in the Spirit, only. To profess that the Spirit can manifest in the flesh, looks like a theology delving far away from the scriptures (in relation to JC and resurrection).

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

John also refers to the resurrection or change to spirit as one’s birth into the kingdom of God. While man who is born of the flesh is flesh, he who is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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Like in 1 Cor 15, how can Jesus be the natural body when He was conceived by natural body and Spirit? How can one say that which born of the flesh is flesh, and Spirit is Spirit, when Jesus was conceived thru both flesh and Spirit? No other “being” can lay claim that he was created this way.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I haven’t read in the accounts (not gospels) of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John about “JC’s “change” from body to spirit”. Their objectives could be different from Paul’s in this respect.

Is Paul not enough to you don?

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Paul’s words, IMO, is of similar to the Pope, in the teaching sense. I mean, what Paul is teaching, for me, is theology, an interpretation (his) of the 4 Gospels. That is the reason his writings are called “Epistles”. How many times has Paul got into argument with other apostles? Was he not writing/preaching beyond the limits in his justification by faith – to the point he was, as bible scholars would say, rebuked by James the Just?

I am also interested on your (high) regard of Paul over the 4: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. This, as Paul was never with JC in the flesh. Do you adhere to the so-called “Pauline Christianity”, Mang Epi?

EMA: don robert wrote:

I have no problem on how Paul explains resurrection. But Paul did not say that Jesus resurrected in the spirit ONLY.

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Paul in fact clearly made a distinction between the natural body & spiritual body which are opposites. So one should not expect Paul to state the word “ONLY” when Christ was changed from flesh to spirit.

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don robert wrote:

The Four Gospels (it seems you don’t adhere to them as such) did not mention that Jesus resurrected in the Spirit ONLY. In John, it is very clearly written that Jesus resurrected in the flesh too, when he showed His (fresh) wounds to Thomas and the others.

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I adhere to the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I even cited John clearly stating the distinction between those born of flesh from that of the spirit.

Of course you have stated you don’t accept any explanation on the flesh and bones the resurrected Jesus showed his still unbelieving and still Holy Spirit devoid disciples. That even after manifesting in flesh and bones for them to recognize him, they still did not believe he was the Jesus who was their Teacher who died and was buried 3 days earlier.

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don robert wrote:

I think, as a lawyer Mang Epi, you believe in Habeas Corpus. If Jesus did not resurrect in the flesh, where is the (dead) body? Habeas Corpus. Produce the body. And, how can you say that there was a “change” (body to spirit) when you have no proof of that change (or the process)?

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The proof is that one can no longer show the former state which has been changed to another.

Take water. Water is liquid. When heat is applied, it is changed to vapor. When the liquid has been changed to vapor, why should you still be looking for the liquid?

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don robert wrote:

In reality, as witnessed by several people, the body was produced, with written accounts by John. This, IMO, dispels your theory on the resurrection of JC in the Spirit, only.

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We physical people cannot see spirits unless: 1) the spirit manifests into flesh, or 2) our eyes are “opened” to see the spiritual world.

The resurrected Jesus chose the 1st in showing himself to his disciples.

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don robert wrote:

To profess that the Spirit can manifest in the flesh, looks like a theology delving far away from the scriptures (in relation to JC and resurrection).

————————————–

Don’t you believe in angels manifesting as men to show themselves to the people in the OT?

Don’t you believe YHWH, the former human Jesus, manifested himself to Abraham, Joshua, Israel, etc. in the OT?

I agree it’s a good question to ponder. Who is “delving far away from the scriptures”?

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don robert wrote:

Like in 1 Cor 15, how can Jesus be the natural body when He was conceived by natural body and Spirit? How can one say that which born of the flesh is flesh, and Spirit is Spirit, when Jesus was conceived thru both flesh and Spirit? No other “being” can lay claim that he was created this way.

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The answer is simply to take the bible word for it. The spirit became flesh. There is no biological union of spirit and flesh in Jesus’ conception in Mary’s womb. By God’s power, the spirit Word was turned into flesh and became the human Jesus Christ.

Having been turned to flesh, God filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1).

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don robert wrote:

Paul’s words, IMO, is of similar to the Pope, in the teaching sense. I mean, what Paul is teaching, for me, is theology, an interpretation (his) of the 4 Gospels. That is the reason his writings are called “Epistles”.

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Epistle simply means a letter. Paul was covering already a number of converts in various places he had to write letters as travel was still slow at that time.

Paul was not interpreting “the 4 Gospels”. He received his teachings direct from the resurrected Jesus Christ through revelation.

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

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don robert wrote:

How many times has Paul got into argument with other apostles? Was he not writing/preaching beyond the limits in his justification by faith – to the point he was, as bible scholars would say, rebuked by James the Just?

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If what you say that the “bible scholars would say, rebuked by James the Just” is true, I disagree with their observation.

There is no conflict between what Paul and James say about faith. (This was asked in an earlier thread and I’ve posted my position.)

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don robert wrote:

I am also interested on your (high) regard of Paul over the 4: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. This, as Paul was never with JC in the flesh. Do you adhere to the so-called “Pauline Christianity”, Mang Epi?

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I’ve no idea on “the so-called ‘Pauline Christianity'”, don.

If you forgot their first encounter, the resurrected Jesus blinded the then Saul to get his attention.

Acts 9:1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

I have regard for Paul because, aside from his being a learned man, God gave him understanding. As Paul mentioned in his letter to the Galatians, Jesus taught him.

Galatians 1:14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem…

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Paul in fact clearly made a distinction between the natural body & spiritual body which are opposites. So one should not expect Paul to state the word “ONLY” when Christ was changed from flesh to spirit.

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Mang Epi, you mentioned earlier that Jesus is a “natural man”, who has flesh. But your concept on resurrection of JC, where in the body “changed” into spirit is not discussed by Paul. The natural body decays when it is dead. Yet you can’t explain, through the scriptures, where did the “body” go.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The proof is that one can no longer show the former state which has been changed to another.

Take water. Water is liquid. When heat is applied, it is changed to vapor. When the liquid has been changed to vapor, why should you still be looking for the liquid?

————————————–

If we are to talk about Matter, then there will be some contradiction between water to gas, versus Jesus’ body to spirit.

What caused the water to transform its state to gas? The answer is heat. What caused JC to resurrect? The answer is death. You mentioned that JC is born of natural body. If we follow the Matter analogy, this should be the case: living body -> death -> cadaver -> ashes. Yet in JC’s case, there is no cadaver. If JC had a natural body like that of the first Adam, where is the cadaver?

The transformation of body to spirit, or “change”, Mang Epi, cannot be explained. Simply because JC actually resurrected in body and in spirit. I think to say “nawala na parang bula” (disappearing without a trace), is a different kind of theology when it comes to JC’s resurrection.

Habeas corpus. Produce the body. JC did produce His body. He showed Himself to His disciples.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

We physical people cannot see spirits unless: 1) the spirit manifests into flesh, or 2) our eyes are “opened” to see the spiritual world.

The resurrected Jesus chose the 1st in showing himself to his disciples.

————————————–

This is just your opinion, Mang Epi. Nowhere in the scriptures it says that Jesus “manifested” Himself into flesh from Spirit (or vice versa), when He appeared to the disciples. Although He has the power to do so, yet in line with your stand on the “resurrection of the spirit only”, this looks misplaced.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Don’t you believe in angels manifesting as men to show themselves to the people in the OT?

Don’t you believe YHWH, the former human Jesus, manifested himself to Abraham, Joshua, Israel, etc. in the OT?

I agree it’s a good question to ponder. Who is “delving far away from the scriptures”?

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I am lost with the “former human Jesus”, Mang Epi. Angels are different beings, Mang Epi. Their “state” cannot be harmonized to that of Jesus who had a “natural body” since birth.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

The answer is simply to take the bible word for it. The spirit became flesh. There is no biological union of spirit and flesh in Jesus’ conception in Mary’s womb. By God’s power, the spirit Word was turned into flesh and became the human Jesus Christ.

Having been turned to flesh, God filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1).

————————————–

How can you say that there was no “biological union of spirit and flesh” in the conception of Jesus, yet affirm the (unseen) “change” occured from body to spirit in JC’s resurrection?

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Epistle simply means a letter. Paul was covering already a number of converts in various places he had to write letters as travel was still slow at that time.

Paul was not interpreting “the 4 Gospels”. He received his teachings direct from the resurrected Jesus Christ through revelation.

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

————————————–

This is a different context, Mang Epi. Remember, Paul was with a lot of apostles during his ministry. It is impossible to believe that he did not know or heard of stories on the lives of JC.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

If what you say that the “bible scholars would say, rebuked by James the Just” is true, I disagree with their observation.

There is no conflict between what Paul and James say about faith. (This was asked in an earlier thread and I’ve posted my position.)

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The Catholic church agrees with you on this too.

————————————–

Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I’ve no idea on “the so-called ‘Pauline Christianity'”, don.

If you forgot their first encounter, the resurrected Jesus blinded the then Saul to get his attention.

Acts 9:1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

I have regard for Paul because, aside from his being a learned man, God gave him understanding. As Paul mentioned in his letter to the Galatians, Jesus taught him.

Galatians 1:14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem…

————————————–

I’ve read in passing about Pauline Christianity relies heavily on Paul’s letters.

EMA: don robert wrote:

Mang Epi, you mentioned earlier that Jesus is a “natural man”, who has flesh. But your concept on resurrection of JC, where in the body “changed” into spirit is not discussed by Paul. The natural body decays when it is dead. Yet you can’t explain, through the scriptures, where did the “body” go.

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Let me just say, you are still looking for the body which repeatedly I’ve stated that the body has been changed to spirit.

Of course, Paul discussed what transpires in a resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:35-49).

You’re right, the natural body decays when it dies but in the case of Jesus, he did not decay because he was changed to spirit when he was resurrected before decay could set in.

————————————–

don robert wrote:

If we are to talk about Matter, then there will be some contradiction between water to gas, versus Jesus’ body to spirit.

What caused the water to transform its state to gas? The answer is heat. What caused JC to resurrect? The answer is death. You mentioned that JC is born of natural body. If we follow the Matter analogy, this should be the case: living body -> death -> cadaver -> ashes. Yet in JC’s case, there is no cadaver. If JC had a natural body like that of the first Adam, where is the cadaver?

The transformation of body to spirit, or “change”, Mang Epi, cannot be explained. Simply because JC actually resurrected in body and in spirit. I think to say “nawala na parang bula” (disappearing without a trace), is a different kind of theology when it comes to JC’s resurrection.

Habeas corpus. Produce the body. JC did produce His body. He showed Himself to His disciples.

————————————–

My comparison on the water from liquid to gas is on the change of form.

Resurrection or change to spirit is not even limited to a dead body or dust. Even the person who is alive can be changed to spirit at the twinkling of an eye. This is what will happen to those overcomers who are still alive at Christ’s coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

A resurrection is one’s entry to the kingdom of God. No flesh and blood and bones can enter the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

You demand habeas corpus. That is only done in human affairs, don, and not when the subject is resurrection.

One should no longer look for the physical, natural body of a person who has been resurrected because it has been changed to spirit.

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don robert wrote:

This is just your opinion, Mang Epi. Nowhere in the scriptures it says that Jesus “manifested” Himself into flesh from Spirit (or vice versa), when He appeared to the disciples. Although He has the power to do so, yet in line with your stand on the “resurrection of the spirit only”, this looks misplaced.

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Unless you recognize Jesus as the YHWH and I AM and the Rock in the OT, you can say that “Nowhere in the scriptures it says that Jesus “manifested” Himself into flesh from Spirit (or vice versa)”

No problem with me if you look at my understanding of the resurrection as the change from flesh or dust to spirit being “misplaced”.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

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don robert wrote:

I am lost with the “former human Jesus”, Mang Epi. Angels are different beings, Mang Epi. Their “state” cannot be harmonized to that of Jesus who had a “natural body” since birth.

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My point is the power of God and the angels who are spirits to manifest to man in the flesh for man to see. Otherwise, he could not see the spirit. If angels can so manifest in the flesh, how much more the resurrected Jesus?

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don robert wrote:

How can you say that there was no “biological union of spirit and flesh” in the conception of Jesus, yet affirm the (unseen) “change” occured from body to spirit in JC’s resurrection?

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The human Jesus was already existing before he became flesh. The spirit Word was merely changed to flesh. In the resurrection, the flesh just reverted to its former state of being a spirit.

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don robert wrote:

This is a different context, Mang Epi. Remember, Paul was with a lot of apostles during his ministry. It is impossible to believe that he did not know or heard of stories on the lives of JC.

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My comment was on your statements “Paul is teaching, for me, is theology, an interpretation (his) of the 4 Gospels” to which I disagree. That is the reason his writings are called ‘Epistles'”.

The point is, what Paul learned which he later taught was through revelation by Jesus Christ.

EMA: boxingfan529 wrote:

The issue is not following “a law God wants His people to follow” but whether or not the blood of animals sacrificed cleansed sins. The bible answer is no, “it is not possible”.

sorry for this late reply… bz lang sa trabaho…

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in the case of Christ as the lamb of God who takes the sins of the world signifies that the old testament believers were correct in believing that doing the law concerning the sin and burnt offering. again, it was only in the new testament that explained that old testament offerings were a reflection of Christ death. between the two, faith is the common ingredient to fulfill that cleansing.

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Let me just say, you are still looking for the body which repeatedly I’ve stated that the body has been changed to spirit.

Of course, Paul discussed what transpires in a resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:35-49).

You’re right, the natural body decays when it dies but in the case of Jesus, he did not decay because he was changed to spirit when he was resurrected before decay could set in.

My comparison on the water from liquid to gas is on the change of form.

Resurrection or change to spirit is not even limited to a dead body or dust. Even the person who is alive can be changed to spirit at the twinkling of an eye. This is what will happen to those overcomers who are still alive at Christ’s coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

A resurrection is one’s entry to the kingdom of God. No flesh and blood and bones can enter the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

You demand habeas corpus. That is only done in human affairs, don, and not when the subject is resurrection.

One should no longer look for the physical, natural body of a person who has been resurrected because it has been changed to spirit.

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Mang Epi, I think we are down to two things on which we seem not to meet, as follows:

1. The change of body into spirit.

If, again, we are to use your liguid to gas analogy, we must surely be looking for a cadaver. When heat is applied to a liquid, it evaporates, as this is its nature. When death is applied to a living body, a cadaver is what is left, as this is its nature. Remember, you said that Jesus is the same as Adam when he became human — He has a natural body. Yet you haven’t explained where the cadaver of Jesus is. You are claiming Jesus’ natural body “evaporated”, when its nature is to have a cadaver.

There has been no instance in the bible wherein the natural body changed into spirit. You have cited occasions where the spirit changed or manifested into flesh, but not the other way around. If we are to follow your interpretation on 1 Cor 15:50, then no human has gone to enter the kingdom of God becoz you see cadaver after cadaver being buried everywhere. Only Jesus, in your interpretation of resurrection, is in heaven.

Also, resurrection involves the natural body in the process. So, habeas corpus is very much relevant in here. Especially since you confirmed that Jesus is of natural body like any ordinary Adam. And like any human, we always need to look for the body.

2. Jesus manifestation: in Spirit versus in Flesh

While Jesus can manifest in both Spirit and Flesh, for He is God and has the power to do so, your unwavering stance that Jesus is spirit first then manifested in flesh in front of his disciples, does not follow the “process” or “incidences” that has happened in the bible. Like you mentioned Angels. Angels are spirit who manifested into natural body. But we should emphasize that the Angels were Spirit first, before manifesting in natural body. They never “resurrected”. In the case of Jesus, after His death, for you he became a spirit first then manifested in natural body, in front of his disciples. However you look at it, the process does not make sense. There was an (unseen/unexplained) change from body to spirit. then suddenly, Jesus manifested into the body.

It’s like saying that when you applied heat to air it became liquid.

So far, you were able to explain things except this “change” of Jesus, from natural body to spirit.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Unless you recognize Jesus as the YHWH and I AM and the Rock in the OT, you can say that “Nowhere in the scriptures it says that Jesus “manifested” Himself into flesh from Spirit (or vice versa)”

No problem with me if you look at my understanding of the resurrection as the change from flesh or dust to spirit being “misplaced”.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

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I think this is the theology taught by WCG, right Mang Epi?

EMA: don robert wrote:

Mang Epi, I think we are down to two things on which we seem not to meet, as follows:

1. The change of body into spirit.

If, again, we are to use your liguid to gas analogy, we must surely be looking for a cadaver. When heat is applied to a liquid, it evaporates, as this is its nature. When death is applied to a living body, a cadaver is what is left, as this is its nature. Remember, you said that Jesus is the same as Adam when he became human — He has a natural body. Yet you haven’t explained where the cadaver of Jesus is. You are claiming Jesus’ natural body “evaporated”, when its nature is to have a cadaver.

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I’ve been wondering why you kept on looking for a physical body in a resurrection and when I reread your previous post, I found the answer. To you don, death causes resurrection:

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don robert wrote:

What caused JC to resurrect? The answer is death.

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This is where the big difference in our understanding lie.

All men, being sinners, will die. When we all die and lay dead, our only hope to be alive again is the resurrection. Unless the dead is resurrected, he will be gone forever. He perishes.

The resurrection is not caused by death. It is one’s release from the power of death.

Our minds cannot meet because we differ in our understanding of soul, death, spirit, resurrection, I think many others.

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don robert wrote:

There has been no instance in the bible wherein the natural body changed into spirit.

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So far, Jesus’ resurrection is the only instance.

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don robert wrote: You have cited occasions where the spirit changed or manifested into flesh, but not the other way around. If we are to follow your interpretation on 1 Cor 15:50, then no human has gone to enter the kingdom of God becoz you see cadaver after cadaver being buried everywhere. Only Jesus, in your interpretation of resurrection, is in heaven.

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You are right don, aside from Jesus, no other man has yet entered the kingdom of God.

The resurrection of even the prominent men like Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Samuel, Elijah, etc. has not occurred yet. Hebrews 11 enumerates the men of faith who have since died. They’re still dead and have not yet received the promises.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises…

David, one described as a man after God’s own heart, still lays dead and did not ascend into the heavens.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day…34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens…

Jesus, who came down from heaven attests that no one has ascended to heaven except he who came from heaven.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

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don robert wrote:

Also, resurrection involves the natural body in the process. So, habeas corpus is very much relevant in here. Especially since you confirmed that Jesus is of natural body like any ordinary Adam. And like any human, we always need to look for the body.

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“Change” is the keyword don. I think what you have in mind on resurrection is separation of spirit from a body. For this reason, you expect a body to remain.

Resurrection is the change of the natural or physical body to spirit. It is the body which becomes the spirit. So when this happens, there is no more physical or natural body to behold but the spirit.

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don robert wrote:

2. Jesus manifestation: in Spirit versus in Flesh

While Jesus can manifest in both Spirit and Flesh, for He is God and has the power to do so, your unwavering stance that Jesus is spirit first then manifested in flesh in front of his disciples, does not follow the “process” or “incidences” that has happened in the bible. Like you mentioned Angels. Angels are spirit who manifested into natural body. But we should emphasize that the Angels were Spirit first, before manifesting in natural body. They never “resurrected”. In the case of Jesus, after His death, for you he became a spirit first then manifested in natural body, in front of his disciples. However you look at it, the process does not make sense. There was an (unseen/unexplained) change from body to spirit. then suddenly, Jesus manifested into the body.

It’s like saying that when you applied heat to air it became liquid.

So far, you were able to explain things except this “change” of Jesus, from natural body to spirit.

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Again, our understanding on Jesus’ resurrected body differ. Yours is flesh and bones and spirit while mine is spirit only.

If Jesus showed flesh and bones to his disciples, he did because he, as spirit, is capable of doing so. And he had to be seen as he was seen by them lest they will never believe in a resurrection of the dead and that Jesus had resurrected. More so, that the Jesus they knew is the one who appeared to them. Anyway, I know you accept no explanation so you can disregard these lines.

Only the dead needs the resurrection if that dead God wants to resurrect. The angels who are spirits already obviously need not be changed to spirit. Jesus needed the resurrection when he submitted to the power of death.

As I’ve pointed out above, the keyword is “change”.

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don robert wrote:

I think this is the theology taught by WCG, right Mang Epi?

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Whether or not it is, doesn’t matter. What does is if it is what the bible says.

Devil_May_Cry: Kakatuwa naman tong thread na to… very healthy…

DaBizz: Kaya nga idol ko yang si Ka Epi eh! Di ko talagan maalala na nagmumura o nang-iinsulto ya dito. Religion and Politics are two topics where you can easily find friends and foes. It seems lahat dito mataas talaga ang respeto kay Ka Epi!

Keep it up guys!

don robert: There are different forms of debate. Others agitate you to lose your cool. Others will just straight up talk with you.

Mang Epi is one cool customer. Although I differ in a lot of ways of what or how he understands his scriptures, I am humbled by the way he behaves.

Like Alanis Morissette barked: “You live, you learn”.

grean villacarlos: Kaya na me miss din kita bro eh. Cool ka rin…

don robert: You’re better than me with the bible, dude. join in.

Devil_May_Cry: don robert wrote:

There are different forms of debate. Others agitate you to lose your cool. Others will just straight up talk with you.

Mang Epi is one cool customer. Although I differ in a lot of ways of what or how he understands his scriptures, I am humbled by the way he behaves.

Like Alanis Morissette barked: “You live, you learn”.

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Thanks bro… pansin ko nga, pareho kayong cool… kayo na siguro mga idol ko pagdating sa debate… sana maging ganyan din ako… medyo mainit kasi ulo ko eh…

Keep it up bros.

EMA: To be able to befriend forum acquaintances whom one does not see is a good training for bible believers to love God whom they cannot see.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

Devil_May_Cry: Thanks for the cool lessons here, bro don, epi & grean… mabuhay po kayo..!

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

I’ve been wondering why you kept on looking for a physical body in a resurrection and when I reread your previous post, I found the answer. To you don, death causes resurrection.

This is where the big difference in our understanding lie.

All men, being sinners, will die. When we all die and lay dead, our only hope to be alive again is the resurrection. Unless the dead is resurrected, he will be gone forever. He perishes.

The resurrection is not caused by death. It is one’s release from the power of death.

Our minds cannot meet because we differ in our understanding of soul, death, spirit, resurrection, I think many others.

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I just made a long reply, but accidentally closed it. So, I have to re-do it all over again.

Anyway, we can always agree to disagree, Mang Epi.

But…

We should not include the other topics for now, as we are only discussing the resurrection of JC. When I said “What caused JC to resurrect? The answer is death.”, however we jumble the words, no resurrection will occur without death first. When you provided the liquid-to-gas analogy, I had to harmonize it with a living body, which when death is “applied” to it, it will turn into a cadaver. This, as you have claimed earlier that Jesus (the Word that became flesh) has a natural body. As natural as any Adam or Eve human beings. Thus, if we pursue what happens to a natural body when it is dead, there is no iota of a doubt that we will see a cadaver.

Yet, you have presented the idea that Jesus is now a Spirit after resurrection, that there was a “change” that happened to his natural body. Your quote on 1 Cor 15 (specifically verse 45) does not support or provide any explanation on the process of this “change”.

And again, if we are to use the liquid-to-gas analogy on the “change”, then we will surely see a cadaver. Unless we agree that your theory on “change” is a “mystery”, then I guess I would want to get more explanation on how to fully understand this “change”.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

So far, Jesus’ resurrection is the only instance.

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Ok, Mang Epi. Is there any explanation to this with respect to the scriptures?

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

You are right don, aside from Jesus, no other man has yet entered the kingdom of God.

The resurrection of even the prominent men like Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Samuel, Elijah, etc. has not occurred yet. Hebrews 11 enumerates the men of faith who have since died. They’re still dead and have not yet received the promises.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises…

David, one described as a man after God’s own heart, still lays dead and did not ascend into the heavens.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day…34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens…

Jesus, who came down from heaven attests that no one has ascended to heaven except he who came from heaven.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

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Ok, Mang Epi. If no one has resurrected yet, how would we explain Mat 27: 52-53?

Matthew 27

52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city and appeared to many.

Didn’t these “saints” resurrect?

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

“Change” is the keyword don. I think what you have in mind on resurrection is separation of spirit from a body. For this reason, you expect a body to remain.

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I think this is where we differ, Mang Epi.

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Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Resurrection is the change of the natural or physical body to spirit. It is the body which becomes the spirit. So, when this happens, there is no more physical or natural body to behold but the spirit.

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I am still intrigue and curious on the “change” you are saying Mang Epi.

1 Corinthians 15

44 It is sown a natural body: it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written

As I understand the verse above, the body will be left and the spirit will rise during resurrection.

EMA: don robert wrote:

I just made a long reply, but accidentally closed it. So, I have to re-do it all over again.

Anyway, we can always agree to disagree, Mang Epi.

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Of course.

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don robert wrote:

But…

We should not include the other topics for now, as we are only discussing the resurrection of JC. When I said “What caused JC to resurrect? The answer is death.”, however we jumble the words, no resurrection will occur without death first.

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I just want to emphasize that death is not the cause of resurrection. Resurrection is the release from the state of being dead.

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don robert wrote:

When you provided the liquid-to-gas analogy, I had to harmonize it with a living body, which when death is “applied” to it, it will turn into a cadaver. This, as you have claimed earlier that Jesus (the Word that became flesh) has a natural body. As natural as any Adam or Eve human beings. Thus, if we pursue what happens to a natural body when it is dead, there is no iota of a doubt that we will see a cadaver.

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We agree on this (and I think doc red dog also agrees). A dead person is a cadaver.

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don robert wrote:

Yet, you have presented the idea that Jesus is now a Spirit after resurrection, that there was a “change” that happened to his natural body. Your quote on 1 Cor 15 (specifically verse 45) does not support or provide any explanation on the process of this “change”.

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I don’t think the change from cadaver to spirit could be considered a process. The change is so quick, at the twinkling of an eye, in a moment and not even a second in duration.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

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don robert wrote:

And again, if we are to use the liquid-to-gas analogy on the “change”, then we will surely see a cadaver. Unless we agree that your theory on “change” is a “mystery”, then I guess I would want to get more explanation on how to fully understand this “change”.

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I’m glad you “want to get more explanation on how to fully understand this ‘change'”. Paul gives the explanation.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

While this change was a mystery, it no longer is as Paul already told it to the Corinthians and us now.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

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don robert wrote:

Ok, Mang Epi. Is there any explanation to this with respect to the scriptures?

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There is. The resurrection to spirit has an order. Christ first, then those who are Christ’s at his return.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

We read in other bible passages that the rest of mankind will rise during the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-13).

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don robert wrote:

Ok, Mang Epi. If no one has resurrected yet, how would we explain Mat 27: 52-53?

Matthew 27

52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city and appeared to many.

Didn’t these “saints” resurrect?

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They did. But not to spirit. Their resurrection was physical similar to that of Lazarus whom Jesus raised back to life from being dead.

The resurrection of the saints to spirit is yet to occur at Christ’s coming.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Btw, when the bible speaks of “saints”, it refers to spirit imbued believers dead or alive. This is a very different concept to that of the RCC.

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don robert wrote:

I think this is where we differ, Mang Epi.

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We can leave this difference unreconciled.

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don robert wrote:

I am still intrigue and curious on the “change” you are saying Mang Epi.

1 Corinthians 15

44 It is sown a natural body: it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written

As I understand the verse above, the body will be left and the spirit will rise during resurrection.

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If a body is left, the occurrence will hardly be called a change.

Let’s reread the verse and note the word “it” referring to the “body”: “44 It is sown a natural body: it shall rise a spiritual body.

The natural body itself will rise as a spiritual body.

red dog: Agree with you Epi that a dead body is a cadaver. I did not post in here cause your threads title is only for bible believers.

EMA: Thanks for your confirmation doc.

You should have read the first post which welcomed comments of non-bible believers.

don robert: Mang Epi, let’s start a clean slate and discuss resurrection itself, thru Paul’s eyeview. This discussion should still be in parallel with what we have been discussing on Jesus’ resurrection: did He or did He not resurrect in the flesh too.

I don’t know how to start with this chapter, so I think it would be best if you discuss first 1 Cor 15, what’s with this chapter, key points, etc.

=========================================

1 Corinthians, Chapter 15

1

Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.

2

Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3

For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;

4

that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;

5

that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.

6

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

7

After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

8

Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.

9

For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me.

11

Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12

But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?

13

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised.

14

And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.

15

Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.

16

For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,

17

and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

18

Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19

If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.

22

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,

23

but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;

24

then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.

25

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

26

The last enemy to be destroyed is death,

27

for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.

28

When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

29

Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?

30

Moreover, why are we endangering ourselves all the time?

31

Every day I face death; I swear it by the pride in you (brothers) that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

32

If at Ephesus I fought with beasts, so to speak, what benefit was it to me? If the dead are not raised: “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

33

Do not be led astray: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”

34

Become sober as you ought and stop sinning. For some have no knowledge of God; I say this to your shame.

35

But someone may say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come back?”

36

You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies.

37

And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;

38

but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body.

39

Not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for human beings, another kind of flesh for animals, another kind of flesh for birds, and another for fish.

40

There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another.

41

The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness.

42

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible.

43

It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful.

44

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.

45

So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

46

But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.

47

The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.

48

As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly.

49

Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.

50

This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51

Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,

52

in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53

For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

54

And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

55

Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

56

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

57

But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

EMA: don robert wrote:

Mang Epi, let’s start a clean slate and discuss resurrection itself, thru Paul’s eyeview. This discussion should still be in parallel with what we have been discussing on Jesus’ resurrection: did He or did He not resurrect in the flesh too.

————————————–

Very well.

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don robert wrote:

I don’t know how to start with this chapter, so I think it would be best if you discuss first 1 Cor 15, what’s with this chapter, key points, etc.

————————————–

This chapter settles not only the issue on whether or not Christ was resurrected or as spirit, this also settles the bigger question – was Christ resurrected at all?

With this bigger question, it should be settled, I hope, that Christ died. That Christ needed to be revived or resurrected if only what Paul had been preaching that he was resurrected be not in vain.

The key points in this chapter are:

1. Jesus died

2. Jesus was resurrected

3. He was resurrected as spirit

4. Because of his resurrection, all men who have died did not perish

5. resurrected is change from flesh and blood or dust to spirit

6. Man’s hope is we shall be changed from mortal to immortal, from flesh and blood to spirit.

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Quote:

1 Corinthians, Chapter 15

1

Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.

2

Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

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One’s belief is at stake. Is his belief in vain?

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Quote:

3

For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;

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Note the phrase “of first importance”. What is “of first importance”? “that Christ died”.

Those who say it is only the body which died and that the Christ was in spirit and went to preach to the spirits in prison need to ponder on this verse. Did Christ really die?

————————————–

Quote:

4

that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;

————————————–

Christ did die. The power of death had Christ in its hold. Christ needed to be revived.

————————————–

Quote:

5

that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.

6

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

7

After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

8

Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.

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Christ appeared to many to show them he was raised back to life. Christ was resurrected.

If Christ continued to live in spirit to preach, it could not be said that he was resurrected.

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Quote:

9

For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me.

11

Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

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Paul seems to be giving his credential or authority to be taken seriously in his word by the incredulous audience that Christ died, was buried and was raised from the dead.

————————————–

Quote:

12

But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?

13

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised.

14

And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.

15

Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.

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The resurrection of the dead to spirit was still a debatable issue at that time.

Paul emphasized the importance of Christ’s resurrection. If he remained dead, then those who have died have perished. The living will have no hope.

————————————–

Quote:

16

For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,

17

and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

18

Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19

If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

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Paul assures that Christ indeed was raised from the dead.

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Quote:

20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.

22

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,

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But the resurrection has an order. Christ first and then those who are his at his coming.

————————————–

Quote:

23

but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;

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Christ’s death and resurrection assures the eventual banishment of death itself.

————————————–

Quote:

24

then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.

25

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

26

The last enemy to be destroyed is death,

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The hope of a better and more glorious life is what should keep believers to endure the tests in this life.

————————————–

Quote:

27

for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.

28

When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

29

Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?

30

Moreover, why are we endangering ourselves all the time?

31

Every day I face death; I swear it by the pride in you (brothers) that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

32

If at Ephesus I fought with beasts, so to speak, what benefit was it to me? If the dead are not raised: “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

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Paul gives guidance on how to keep on tract.

————————————–

Quote:

33

Do not be led astray: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”

34

Become sober as you ought and stop sinning. For some have no knowledge of God; I say this to your shame.

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Now to the question as to how are the dead raised. Paul distinguishes the before and after resurrection bodies.

Quote:

35

But someone may say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come back?”

36

You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies.

37

And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;

38

but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body.

39

Not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for human beings, another kind of flesh for animals, another kind of flesh for birds, and another for fish.

40

There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another.

41

The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness.

42

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible.

43

It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful.

44

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.

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Verse 45 states that at his resurrection, the flesh and blood Christ became a spirit.

Quote:

45

So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

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As we are now flesh and blood, we shall also become like Christ when we are resurrected.

Quote:

46

But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.

47

The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.

48

As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly.

49

Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.

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Paul clearly points out that to inherit the kingdom of God, we shall be spirits. No flesh and blood. Christ did not resurrect with flesh and bones. Otherwise, he could not have entered the KOG.

Quote:

50

This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

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To enter the kingdom of God, flesh and blood will be changed to spirit instantly. The corruptible will become incorruptible. The mortal will become immortal.

Quote:

51

Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,

52

in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53

For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

————————————–

Finally, there will be no more death. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ.

Quote:

54

And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

55

Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

56

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

57

But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

don robert: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Now to the question as to how are the dead raised. Paul distinguishes the before and after resurrection bodies.

————————————–

Sorry I left you hanging, Mang Epi.

I would want to reply to you on some points, but time is not on my side right now. I will get back at you in more length in the coming days. Anyway, for the time being, in the quoted post, verse 44 does not look proof enough to support your point that Jesus resurrected ONLY in the flesh. Likewise in verse 42, Jesus body was not sown “corruptible”, so how can it be raised incorruptible, when it never was.

Also, is there a parallel verse on these verses, Mang Epi? I remember I posted that 1 Cor 15:40-44, has some same message with that of 1 Cor 3, in terms of the “natural and spiritual body”.

EMA: don robert wrote:

Sorry I left you hanging, Mang Epi.

I would want to reply to you on some points, but time is not on my side right now. I will get back at you in more length in the coming days.

————————————–

Take all the time you need dr.

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don robert wrote:

Anyway, for the time being, in the quoted post, verse 44 does not look proof enough to support your point that Jesus resurrected ONLY in the flesh.

————————————–

Verse 44 even shows the distinction between a natural body from a spirit.

I’ve previously posted that resurrection from the dead is also referred to as birth into the kingdom of God. For this reason, the resurrected Jesus is considered as the firstborn of all creation from the dead.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation…18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead…

One who is born of the spirit is spirit as contrasted to one who is born of the flesh which is flesh.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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don robert wrote:

Likewise in verse 42, Jesus body was not sown “corruptible”, so how can it be raised incorruptible, when it never was.

————————————–

It is not true that “Jesus’ body was not sown ‘corruptible'”. There is no bible verse to support your belief.

Having been born flesh, Jesus’ body was subject to corruption. He was wounded and bruised badly.

Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,

He was bruised for our iniquities;

The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,

And by His stripes we are healed.

The reason why his body did not rot – see corruption – is the Father’s act of timely resurrecting him thus changing his natural body to spirit.

Acts 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

————————————–

don robert wrote:

Also, is there a parallel verse on these verses, Mang Epi? I remember I posted that 1 Cor 15:40-44, has some same message with that of 1 Cor 3, in terms of the “natural and spiritual body”.

————————————–

The parallel verses are posted in the above comments. As to 1 Cor 3, you make me wonder if you read my posts as I’ve already commented on it.

pilyo2bay: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

With the storm that visited PRMO having passed, I suppose, let’s get back to PRMO business.

With the object for bible believers to try to “synchronize” their bible understanding to “come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God” (Ephesians 4:13), let’s discuss Christ’s death.

My understanding is that when the Jesus Christ of the bible died, he really was dead and unconscious until the Father raised him back to life from the state of being dead.

Non-bible believers are, as always, welcome to also comment.

————————————–

Yes he died and rose again in three days, But there are still non believers on that and i dont know what’s their basis.

Kenny Burrell: pilyo, biblia lang ba ang aklat sa mundo?? may mga taong naniniwala sa kuran.

tHeJoKeR: LOL

pilyo2bay: Yes I know joker I had often discussing this to my friend which is Islam but I dont know how deep his knowledge about Kuran, As far as i know it is mention in Kuran that what is written in Torah and in the Gospel are being confirmed by Kuran that these are true. So they must believe that JC truly died and buried to the dead and on the third day he rose again. It was predicted in the old testament and was fullfilled in the Gospel.

Kenny Burrell: Your friend is Islam? If he is islam he would not believes that Jeesus is died!!

pilyo2bay: Yes he didn’t believed, he reasoned out that whta happened to Jonas was also the same to JC.

Kenny Burrell: Jonas was eaten by a fish that is very very big. But he was still alive inside the fish and he was praying inside the fish. JC in the new testament bible was also prayed inside to the cave for 3 days?

EMA: pilyo2bay wrote:

Yes he died and rose again in three days, But there are still non believers on that and i dont know what’s their basis.

————————————–

Many believe that the Word just entered into a body as a spirit. When Jesus was crucified and executed, it was this body which died while the spirit, allegedly, escaped from the body and went to preach to spirits in prison during the period when the body was dead. They use the following passage as support:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison…

If this was the case, then Jesus did not really die.

pilyo2bay: Thank you sir, my only justification whenever i asked by those who dont believe is when JC appeared to thomas and shows his palm where it was nailed, meaning truly that he was crucified and put to death. Sir, how can you now explain that JC mentioned that what happened to Jonas will also happen to me? im not sure but i heared it.

Kenny Burrell: That is why be always be careful specially when you are in the sea. A big fishes will catch to you and eat you.

pilyo2bay: Oh really? It was happened to Jonas because he’s trying to escape from what god’s want him to do. So dont try to evade god when you are called otherwise you will be eaten by a big big shark.

EMA: pilyo2bay wrote:

Thank you sir, my only justification whenever i asked by those who dont believe is when JC appeared to thomas and shows his palm where it was nailed, meaning truly that he was crucified and put to death. Sir, how can you now explain that JC mentioned that what happened to Jonas will also happen to me? im not sure but i heared it.

————————————–

The comparison with Jonah is on the duration of Jonah’s being in belly of the fish and Jesus’ being entombed which is “three days and three nights”.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

DIGITUSDEI: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

With the storm that visited PRMO having passed, I suppose, let’s get back to PRMO business.  

With the object for bible believers to try to “synchronize” their bible understanding to “come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God” (Ephesians 4:13), let’s discuss Christ’s death.

My understanding is that when the Jesus Christ of the bible died, he really was dead and unconscious until the Father raised him back to life from the state of being dead.

Non-bible believers are, as always, welcome to also comment.

————————————–

of course Christ died.

EMA: What about the contention that it is only the body which died since the spirit does not die? Or that Jesus “died” because “he was separated from God”?

DIGITUSDEI: his flesh body died.

when someone is called by his name does that refer to his spirit? or his body?

same with jesus. when we mention jesus do we mean spirit? or body?

when he died he entrust his spirit to God.

Kenny Burrell: If his flesh body died, why did he eat afterwards?

DIGITUSDEI: because his body has risen.

he even rose the dead.

sarili pa kaya niya ang di niya mabubuhay?

Kenny Burrell: I do nothing of myself… John 8:28

DIGITUSDEI: John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

it depends upon how the reader understand that words.

DIGITUSDEI: Its clear. He can do nothing of himself. He NEEDS GOD.

EMA: DIGITUSDEI wrote:

his flesh body died.

when someone is called by his name does that refer to his spirit? or his body?

same with jesus. when we mention jesus do we mean spirit? or body?

when he died he entrust his spirit to God.

————————————–

When Jesus died, was he, or any part of him, conscious as many believe?

DIGITUSDEI: to my simple understanding his spirit is conscious.

EMA: The bible advises to lean not on our own understanding.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

listen to your heart my friend, just don’t rely on your mind alone.

EMA: I disagree with listening to one’s heart which “is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked”.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Bible understanding is a favor, a revelation from Jesus Christ.

Luke 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

DIGITUSDEI: yes, none of us can trust even our own conscience. we are mere human. only god knows

EMA: I agree with this statement.

Only God knows and those to whom he reveals.

Kenny Burrell: Attaboy efi! Give ‘em a bible lesson!

I hope doc red dog will spell my name with a “p” (Epi) instead of the “f”.

If they insist on listening to their heart, I don’t think the bible lesson will be appreciated.

gnrbuckle: but you can’t read the bible while listening to your mind either.

you can’t be a believer of that, and be an intelligent person at the same time.

EMA: Unless God grants it, one can never understand the bible. But when one is so granted, he should not set aside his intelligence and logic. His mind. As he reverences (fears) God and do God’s commandments, he gains wisdom and good understanding to know the bible.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.

By using one’s mind, intelligence and logic which are stirred by God’s spirit, a person will believe the bible which says that:

1. the soul, being mortal, will die;

2. the man who dies is unconscious;

3. the man who is thrown to the lake of fire will burn and die;

4. many others.

red dog: Sorry EPI!!! 😆 😆 Won’t happen again. 😆 😆 😆 Bible lesson is not for me Epi, nor listening to one’s heart. Logic and reason has always been my guide in life.

EMA: No problem doc, now you’re spelling my name right.

I respect your position doc that “bible lesson” is not for you. But I also use “logic and reason” in my study of the bible.

red dog: That’s why to be here in this world is full of challenge Epi. I always beleive that Paradise and hell is in this earth, that it’s up to man himself who can make it happen for him to live in paradise or hell, and i choose to live in paradise cause if i complicate my life i would try to understand a book that’s full of controversy. From my point of view a simple life is always the best, for if man can only live within his means, respect his fellow humans, enjoy the beauty around us that God has given for our eyes to see and savor and stop looking for God for actually he is there right in front of us. Then man is in paradise, but if man starts to complicate his life trying to define God and look for his house

which many think that it is in religion, then he starts to complicate his life and not knowing it, his in hell.

red dog: That’s why God made you a lawyer, to understand and straighten out the mixed up words in the bible for you to understand and savor, as for me, he made me a doctor to see him in a different way. Bottom line Epi,you, tony and the rest of us are wonderfull human beings. I just wonder though if god created all human beings to be lawyers, prob. there will be no war and confusion for everybody will understand simple and complicated words. But, then, a lot will aspire to become judges and politician. Controversy is still there!! Is there a way out of this Epi??

red dog: Then the bible is telling us Efi, that we should not use our logic and reason. We should just be blind and follow what the priest and scribes wrote.

red dog: Digi, how can a spirit be conscious when there is no bodily function like blood circulation. Does the spirit have a functioning heart? If there is a spirit, it prob. will be pure energy emitted from our body and eventually dissipate.

EMA: Not so doc. “We should” not “just be blind and follow what the priest and scribes” write or tell us.

Prove from the bible itself what is being taught and disregard previously heard teachings on it. An example is that many heard and so believe that the wicked or unrepentant sinners will be thrown into a lake of fire but will not die the death as you have described death. That the fire will burn the sinner for eternity but could not succeed in doing so. And the sinners will wail and gnash their teeth while in the midst of the fiery lake. And this hellfire does not extinguish, according to the common teaching.

If one relies on his own or extra-bible acquired understanding on this teaching, the bible says don’t.

“Logic and reason” are in line with what the bible really teaches. When a person is about to be thrown into the lake of fire, he will be afraid and will wail and gnash his teeth. After he is thrown into the fire, he burns, becomes unconscious, dies, and becomes ashes. Then the fire runs out. Extinguishes.

red dog: Not all people Efi,are afraid to die. Fear is always a tool of the priest and religion. Without it there is no way that they could control man. That is why, over and over, the priest and religious people are always looking for the end of days, the apocalypse, Armagedon and other horrible

things to happen for those who can’t be converted to their faith. Fear is the primary tool of most religion. Then they would play on a persons guilt. Then the reward, a place in heaven with God, mans bonus for being a good and obedient boy. Just my thought Efi.

EMA: I agree on your “thought”, your observation doc on the use of “fear” as a tool to get one’s attention which is not without basis.

Again, the false teachings like the “end of days, the apocalypse, Armagedon and other horrible things to happen” as well as “a place in heaven with God” are teachings which the bible does not support. For one to know what the bible really says, he has to prove from the bible what he hears or is being taught. When he does so, he will find out that the days do not end. The days will continue for eternity. Man is not going to “heaven with God”. Etc.

The bible is dismissed as garbage by those who get their false ideas about it from those who likewise misunderstand its contents.

red dog: Then Efi, why are this stories in the bible? Some uses this as a reminder and others to sow fear. If the bible does not support this, are the priest wrong to mention this when they are preaching? I know you have some verses in the bible that tells man not to beleive on this but there are also some verses that kind of encourage this teaching.

EMA: Doc there are many who preach things which are not only not what the bible teaches, they preach even the direct opposite of what the bible teaches.

Examples of what are being preached by the many but are the opposite of what the bible teaches:

1. Man has a soul which is immortal;

2. Man is going to heaven;

3. Man who is thrown to the lake of fire will suffer for eternity by not dying;

4. This age is the only “day” of salvation;

5. Those who don’t become Christians now will be condemned (this is the “fear” you are referring to);

6. Jesus Christ did not really die as it was only his body which died but he was conscious as spirit that he even preached to the spirits in prison during the period when his body was dead. In short, Christ did not really die.

7. Etc.

DIGITUSDEI: since the holy spirit has no flesh body, then is it unconscious?

and the spirits that descended to the disciples are unconscious?

red dog: Base from my argument, Yes!

EMA: Surprisingly, we are in agreement doc.

el Kapre: is it possible to be conscious when you are dead? of course not.

and Jesus was no exemption imo

EMA: We have the same position regarding the unconsciousness of the dead.

But many say that when Jesus died, he was really alive as a spirit who even preached to the spirits in prison.

el Kapre: if that is the case, there should be no resurrection, for how can an undead resurrect?

EMA: Simple, isn’t it?

EMA: DIGITUSDEI wrote:

because his body has risen.

he even rose the dead.

sarili pa kaya niya ang di niya mabubuhay?

————————————–

Jesus was helpless when he was dead. Without the Father, Jesus would have perished.

Acts 13:30 But God raised Him from the dead…

EMA: red dog wrote:

That’s why God made you a lawyer, to understand and straighten out the mixed up words in the bible for you to understand and savor, as for me, he made me a doctor to see him in a different way.

————————————–

Knowing God does not come at the same time to all persons in the same way that not all students study and learn at the same time. Each has his own time.

————————————–

red dog wrote:

Bottom line Epi,you, tony and the rest of us are wonderfull human beings.

————————————–

I fully agree with you on this doc. God is man’s creator and as such, the finished product man will be perfect. Man will be like God.

Of course, this is according to the bible which I know you don’t give regard as I do at this time.

————————————–

red dog wrote:

I just wonder though if god created all human beings to be lawyers, prob. there will be no war and confusion for everybody will understand simple and complicated words.

————————————–

Under the present system where Satan rules, I have to disagree with you doc.

The lawyer jokes that abound many times contain truth.

————————————–

red dog wrote:

But, then, a lot will aspire to become judges and politician. Controversy is still there!! Is there a way out of this Epi?? 😆 😆 😆

————————————–

Yes, “there is a way out of this” doc. But the source of my answer being the bible, I doubt if you will believe me. Anyway, for those who might give some thought, God will finally interfere in man’s troubled affairs to straighten out things. It will have to be Jesus Christ himself who will take over this world’s administration to make this way out possible. The judges and politicians will be those called in this age who shall have overcome and become spirits, hence, incorruptible, to discharge governmental functions under Christ.

EMA: red dog wrote:

That’s why to be here in this world is full of challenge Epi. I always beleive that Paradise and hell is in this earth, that it’s up to man himself who can make it happen for him to live in paradise or hell, and i choose to live in paradise cause if i complicate my life i would try to understand a book that’s full of controversy. From my point of view a simple life is always the best, for if man can only live within his means, respect his fellow humans, enjoy the beauty around us that God has given for our eyes to see and savor and stop looking for God for actually he is there right in front of us. Then man is in paradise, but if man starts to complicate his life trying to define God and look for his house

which many think that it is in religion, then he starts to complicate his life and not knowing it, his in hell.

————————————–

I agree with your view doc on making life simple. That is, if circumstances would permit it. But sometimes circumstances don’t make it possible to make one’s life simple.

In a supposed to be ideal situation where one can find “paradise” in this life, it will still end. Man, being mortal, will still die.

(Btw, according to the bible hell fire will be on this earth and paradise will be in

Yes or No lang.

the new earth, not heaven as many believe.)

Kenny Burrell: Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:

Under the present system where Satan rules,..

————————————–

I would like to believe that epi. I am so frustrated in the world we live in. Everywhere I turn my head, there is evil. Even in this forum.  

gnrbuckle: satan’s current rule, is that all part of Epi’s god’s grand plan?

Yes or No lang.

EMA: The proof that Satan rules this age can be seen anywhere you look. If God is really ruling, we will not be having calamities and problems this world is experiencing.

God is fair. When God gave Lucifer the authority to rule this earth for a specific time, he didn’t kick Lucifer out even when he became Satan. The term of office is not yet up. Hence, Satan is “god of this age”.

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded…

At Christ’s return, the kingdoms of this world will become Christ’s.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Of course, this is unbelievable to non-bible believers.

Kenny Burrell: Thats not hard to believe.

2:30. And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not.

EMA: Good to know the Quran says that.


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