The sincere bible believing person needs to definitely answer this question. \u00a0Paul declares that the fact of Christ’s death is of first importance:
1 Corinthians 15:3 (NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died…
The question is asked out of concern for the bible student who has been taught like the one who has this to say: <\/p>\n\n\n\n
\u201cIt was the covering that died, his flesh, his physical weaknesses, and human thoughts.\u00a0 But His divinity never dies, as a word of God; he never dies, for God do not die. He is the Alpha and Omega. If his Divinity died once then it will be end of everything, for nothing exist or ever live outside of God.\u201d
This belief, taught for generations, needs to be corrected once for all.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The Word became<\/u> flesh<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n When the Word became flesh (John 1:14), he became so by shedding off his God nature. <\/p>\n\n\n\n What the Word lost was his God nature that cannot die. He emptied himself of that attribute.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word had to be made a little lower than angels so he could die because if he retains that God nature, he would not die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:9 <\/strong>But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The word \u201cbecame\u201d should be understood as \u201cturned into\u201d. What was previous is no longer what it is at present. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Can the Word die?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Can the Word die? Not as a spirit being. But if he changes to flesh and sets aside his God nature which cannot die, he can die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n This is what happened to the Word (YHWH) who “became” flesh, note that occurrence, the spirit became flesh and not just the spirit being covered with flesh. When the spirit Word became Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was just that, a powerless mortal needing the power of the Holy Spirit.\u00a0 The Father gave him the Holy Spirit to indwell in him and even fill him with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Holy Spirit is the same power God gives to believers in the laying on of hands after baptism. Stephen was full of this power. The God-Man concept<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n I was asked this question: \u201cDo you believe that Jesus is the God-MAN, meaning 100% God and 100% man at the same time when he become flesh?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n I answered no, I don’t believe this “God-Man” concept. It is either God or man. When the bible states that the spirit Word “became” flesh, it simply means that the being who was spirit ceased to be spirit and became flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How can Jesus be 100% God when it is the very nature of being immortal which was removed in the lowering of the Word to that level in which he could die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n When the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, there was only one resultant being and not two, the mortal Jesus Christ.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Peter 3:18-19 <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n The question “did Christ really die?” comes up to those who believe that it was only the body that died and that Christ had a conscious spirit who did not die and who even preached to the spirits in prison during the period when his body was dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison\u2026 <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n If one reads the verses carefully, he would notice that there is a sequence of two events: Jesus, who is flesh, died and was unconscious. After some time being dead, Jesus was revived as spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Let’s read some of the other bible versions of 1 Peter 3:18-19: \u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1. The Message version – “He went through it all\u2014was put to death and then made alive\u2014to bring us to God.” What if the spirit Word merely entered the body of Jesus?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n If the Word who was spirit remained as spirit and just escaped the body when Jesus died, then there will be a problem where there will be two spirits in the resurrected Jesus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n First is the one which merely entered the flesh and, second, the flesh which became spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n This is of first importance – Christ really died<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Paul declares that the fact of Christ’s death is of first importance:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:3 (NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died…<\/p>\n\n\n\n Otherwise, one’s belief would be in vain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:1 (NIV) Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The problem, really, is understanding the changes which happened to the Word from spirit to flesh to spirit. The crucial word is “became”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…<\/p>\n\n\n\n After the flesh died, this flesh was again changed back to spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:45…The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n This is the only case where one can really say that Jesus Christ died.<\/p>\n\n\n\n FORUM<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n (philboxing.com thread \u201cTo bible believers, did Christ Really Die?\u201d <\/em>http:\/\/forum.philboxing.com\/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=112287&hilit=to+bible+believers+did+christ+really+die )<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>With the storm that visited PRMO having passed, I suppose, let’s get back to PRMO business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n With the object for bible believers to try to “synchronize” their bible understanding to “come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God” (Ephesians 4:13), let’s discuss Christ’s death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n My understanding is that when the Jesus Christ of the bible died, he really was dead and unconscious until the Father raised him back to life from the state of being dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Non-bible believers are, as always, welcome to also comment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n edmendoza001: <\/strong>exactly my belief as well Mang Epi.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>So we’re in agreement that he really died.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What is your comment on the others’ belief that while the body died, Jesus’ “spirit” went somewhere else to preach to spirits in prison during the period when he was supposed to be dead?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus rose again when the Father raised him back after 3 days.<\/p>\n\n\n\n edmendoza001: <\/strong>I’m not well versed Mang Eps pero is there any bible verse that would back up those claims?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Thanks<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> We’ll just wait for those who have that belief to show the basis or bases of their belief.<\/p>\n\n\n\n edmendoza001: <\/strong>copy that Sir!<\/p>\n\n\n\n equalizer: <\/strong>Of course he died.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But he rose again after 3 days did he?<\/p>\n\n\n\n equalizer: <\/strong>Opps, i’m sorry, i think i need to read morte about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n pls. correct me if im wrong, all I know is that he preached in so many places before he raises himself up to heaven, nothing stated in the bible that he went somewhere else to preach to spirits in prison.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>This is what they cite:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.<\/p>\n\n\n\n rolando natagacavite: <\/strong>I read somewhere that it was a “stage manage” act. Kind of modern magician doing this days. “Space age” people are wondering how they(ancient peopel) build pyramids and other so almost structurely and architecturally perfect. The author hinted that there was science involved and an a deception(?) on the “dying and rising” scene. I’m just sharing it so pls. don’t accuse me of blasphemy. I’ll try to find the article again and post it here kung makikita ko.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Retz: <\/strong>Yup. I believe in it based on faith and as it is written in the Bible. 8)<\/p>\n\n\n\n But the veracity of it is another issue which will be questioned by non-believers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>You’re right, some would question Jesus’ death while others dismiss even his existence in the first place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Metta: <\/strong>It is impossible to synchronize beliefs. Some people will simply not listen and they are already content with what they have. That is biblical and I believe you know it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>With your borrowed avatar, at first glance I thought you’re Tony.<\/p>\n\n\n\n With non-bible believers up to the point when they are called by God, I agree with your observation. But with the called out bible believers, synchronization is possible as this is what Paul hoped for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;<\/p>\n\n\n\n dd44: <\/strong>The question is, did he even existed to begin with. His MO is a copy of previous saviors. Mithras, Dionysus, Amen-Ra… etc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>My statement posted immediately before this post of yours is proven right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n dd44: <\/strong>Using your skills as a lawyer, can you convince me that Jesus did really exist?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>No. I won’t even waste my time to a futile exercise.<\/p>\n\n\n\n dd44: <\/strong>So proving Jesus’ existence is a futile exercise?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>Yes, to you. That is, as of this time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n dd44: <\/strong>I will believe you if you can produce credible evidence. Are you admitting that you don’t have any evidence (credible)?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>Why should I produce evidence when I\u2019m not even trying to convince you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n DuckPunch: <\/strong>What is your reaction to claims that the story of the virgin birth and even the 12 disciples exist in cultures that existed even before Jesus’s birth?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>Which cultures in particular? Jesus\u2019 birth was foretold by the biblical prophets long before the event was fulfilled.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald:<\/strong> It was the covering that died, his flesh, his physical weaknesses, and human thoughts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But His divinity never dies, as a word of God; he never dies, for God do not die. He is the Alpha and Omega. If his Divinity died once then it will be end of everything, for nothing exist or ever live outside of God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>With your view, the question you need to ponder Adme is, “can a God shed off his divinity?”<\/p>\n\n\n\n The bible answer is yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald:<\/strong> EPI’s view has something to do with his definition of who or what God is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>I agree. But to be more specific, my view has something to do with Jesus’ nature from his human birth to his death. Was his nature still that of God?<\/p>\n\n\n\n My reading of the bible is that his nature was not that of God. He was human having shed off his God nature.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>DO you mean God make himself less God? Or God make himself “not God anymore”?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Then, there is one instance where God is not “all powerfull”, or a point in time where “God did not exist”? That is absurd!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus is fully God when he was here on earth, he never lost His divinity. For God cannot make himself less powerful or not God anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>That\u2019s what happened to the Word who became flesh. Aren\u2019t you going to believe the Word had shed his God nature when he became flesh?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>When the word become flesh, he is still a Word. He never lost his attribute as word.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The word put on a fleshly covering to himself. But the Word is still alive in Him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word is God, and God cannot make himself not God or less God. It will create a lot of absurdities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When Jesus became flesh, does it mean God lost his Word? or His Word cease to exist? It is absurd!<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>What the Word lost was his God nature that cannot die. He emptied himself of that attribute.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When the Word became flesh (John 1:14), he became so by shedding off his God nature. This is what Paul said which is not absurd.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Philippians 2:6 (New King James Version) who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Philippians 2:6-7 (Amplified Bible) 6Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,<\/p>\n\n\n\n 7But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>Where it says that the Word lost his God nature? Don’t add anything in the Bible EPI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word become flesh, it does not mean that the Word is no longer a Word. If it does, then God lost his Word! and it is absurd!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Philippians 2 actually supports the Orthodox positions that Jesus is always God. But he emptied himself, in humbleness he did not cling to to His devine attribute so that he will be put to death or else this will not happen. It doesn’t says he lost his divinity, else there is no need for him to empty his devine attributes if there were none since he is not God?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus on earth accept Worship, and you can only worship God. If Jesus was not God at this point, then he should have corrected those who worship him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>Is \u201cstripped\u201d not enough? How about \u201cemptied\u201d in another translation?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Philippians 2:6-7 (Darby Translation)who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;<\/p>\n\n\n\n 7but emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men;<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word had to be made a little lower than angels so he could die because if he retains that God nature, he would not die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Your statement, \u201cThe word put on a fleshly covering to himself\u201d is what is adding to the bible Adme. You are saying that Jesus\u2019 flesh is not Jesus himself but is merely a covering to the Jesus who is covered. In effect, you are saying that Jesus did not really die when he did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Now this is absurd when you contradict the bible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>yeah, he was made lower than angels, that is what we call human.<\/p>\n\n\n\n BUt not the Word himself, The Word is lower than angels? God himself is lower than angels?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Of course Not!<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word become flesh, it is the flesh that is lower than the angels, not the word himself. Yahweh is not flesh, but Spirit. Jesus is Yahweh who become flesh. And Yawheh exist all the time in Jesus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The point here is this, the Word of God does not ceased to exist. God never lost his Word, not even once. God exist all times, God never dies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus accept worship while he is on earth, why would he accept that if he is not God? Jesus forgive sins that only God can do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Again, Philippinens 2 is about humility, as verse 1-5 says. then Paul take Jesus humility as example that Christians should follow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus, in his humility did not consider himself equal with God or cling to the attributes of God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But made himself nothing, emptied himself, pure humbleness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Now if Jesus was not God in the first place, Then Jesus do not need this humility as if He is God for he is not!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Again, your teachings that God make himself less God or “not God anymore” is absurd. God cannot do that! For God is all powerfull all the time. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. If he ceased to be God, then that will be the end of everything. For nothing ever live outside of God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>Before I respond point by point this post, let me ask this question: To you, Jesus Christ did not die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald:<\/strong> Jesus Christ is Yahweh in Flesh. Jesus Christ died, the flesh died, but not Yahweh for Yahweh cannot die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Can Yahweh die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Please answer my post above. Thanks<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…<\/p>\n\n\n\n It is the Godly nature which cannot die which is being addressed. The Word had to be changed from spirit to flesh for the purpose of death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death…<\/p>\n\n\n\n The next issue we need to look into Adme is when the spirit Word became flesh, which or who was that spirit in him?<\/p>\n\n\n\n My understanding is that when the spirit Word became Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was just that, a powerless mortal needing the power of the Holy Spirit and the Father had to give him the Holy Spirit to indwell in him and even fill him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>What? YAHWEH can DIE?<\/p>\n\n\n\n That is absurd. Yahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When Yahweh becomes flesh, he is still Yahweh, he is still the Word. He is still God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That is the reason why Jesus forgives sin while he is on earth, why Jesus accept worships, because he is still Yahweh, God in flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And when Jesus died, it is the Flesh that died, and not Yahweh, for Yahweh cannot die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n yeah, he was made lower than angels, that is what we call human.<\/p>\n\n\n\n BUt not the Word himself,<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Your statements are contradicting each other Adme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1st sentence- “he was made lower than angels” vs. 2nd sentence – “BUt not the Word himself”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Clearly your 2nd sentence contradicts the bible itself. Jesus Christ is that being who had been made lower than the angels.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels…<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus is the flesh who was previously the Word.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word is lower than angels? God himself is lower than angels?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Of course Not!<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word and God himself are not lower than angels. But when God made the Word flesh, the Word’s nature was lowered.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word become flesh, it is the flesh that is lower than the angels, not the word himself. Yahweh is not flesh, but Spirit. Jesus is Yahweh who become flesh. And Yawheh exist all the time in Jesus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n You are confused and confusing Adme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Your statement “Jesus is Yahweh who become flesh” is biblical already.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Your statement “Yawheh exist all the time in Jesus” leads to misunderstanding. This leads one to think that YHWH is one being existing in another being Jesus Christ. Two beings in Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ is only the flesh and not the whole person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The truth is YHWH or the Word became Jesus Christ stripped of his God nature. Having become a mortal, Jesus needed God’s power, the Holy Spirit. So God filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit…<\/p>\n\n\n\n If your understanding be right that YHWH as a being existed in Jesus Christ who is another being, then there would have been no need for the Father to still fill Jesus with the Holy spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The point here is this, the Word of God does not ceased to exist. God never lost his Word, not even once. God exist all times, God never dies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n “God never dies” is correct. For this reason the Word was stripped of his God nature to be able to die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus accept worship while he is on earth, why would he accept that if he is not God? Jesus forgive sins that only God can do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus is well aware of his previous God nature before he became flesh. As a human he was clothed with full authority by the Father.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Again, Philippinens 2 is about humility, as verse 1-5 says. then Paul take Jesus humility as example that Christians should follow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus, in his humility did not consider himself equal with God or cling to the attributes of God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But made himself nothing, emptied himself, pure humbleness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Now if Jesus was not God in the first place, Then Jesus do not need this humility as if He is God for he is not!<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Philippians 2 talks about Jesus’ humility which even reached that point where he has to submit to the power of death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.<\/p>\n\n\n\n He no longer had that God nature which made him subject to death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Again, your teachings that God make himself less God or “not God anymore” is absurd. God cannot do that!<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n You must be reading a book other than the bible Adme. The bible says that God made the Word, a God being, a little lower than angels for the purpose of death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n For God is all powerfull all the time. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. If he ceased to be God, then that will be the end of everything. For nothing ever live outside of God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n It is you who is talking about God ceasing to be God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n God the Father never ceased to be God. But the Word did for a while until he was restored to his former glory through the resurrection from the state of being dead. This is why Jesus prayed to the Father to restore him to the former glory he previously had before he became flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>No, it is you who is talking about God ceasing to be God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n You just admit “the Word did!”<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word did what? God ceasing to be God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n that is what you are telling to us here EPI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n anyway, your theology is really faulty in many ways EPI, not only you are telling to us that God does not know everything, you are also telling to us that there are many Gods as if the Word is one count God + the Father as one count God. Which makes 2 Gods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Bible clearly says that there is only One GOD.<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka: <\/strong>YOu are misinterpreting Epi.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admirald: <\/strong>tell me how I misinterpret EPI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n mexifan: <\/strong>Astro-theology would say the solar messiah did die as perceived in a very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th, or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n By December 22nd, the Sun’s demise was fully realized, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it’s lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for 3 days. During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation. And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again. It is the Sun’s transition period before it shifts its direction back into the Northern Hemisphere, bringing Spring, and thus salvation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did Jesus exist? is the real question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>And your view is?<\/p>\n\n\n\n mexifan:<\/strong> I don’t know. I’m still searching for answers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>At least you’re searching.<\/p>\n\n\n\n mexifan: <\/strong>I try to be objective in my search. Since I was raised Catholic I had to temporarily block my pre-conceived notions as I came across books of varied topics that question the validity of my faith and provide answers to some of my doubts. That is why until now I have failed to post my member belief profile. Right now, I’m a little inclined to Jesus not existing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I’m in the opinion that if people can’t agree on something it’s likely that they all got it wrong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> At least you recognize there is that “something” which “people can’t agree on” which justifies your search.<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert: <\/strong>Can we say Jesus was the “perfect being” Mang Epi, being He is a Man-God?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes don, we can say that Jesus was the \u201cperfect being\u201d for man to emulate in ways and attitude especially when facing afflictions and sufferings one encounters in living the Christian life. Jesus was made perfect through the sufferings he experienced as the captain of man\u2019s salvation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald:<\/strong> EPI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Do you believe that Jesus is the God-MAN, meaning 100% God and 100% man at the same time when he become flesh?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>No. \u201cGod-MAN\u201d (why capitalize \u201cman\u201d and not God?) is a two-word combination introduced into the bible to suit a teaching which directly contradicts the bible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How can Jesus be 100% God when it is the very nature of being immortal which was removed in the lowering of the Word to that level in which he could die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Understanding the word \u201cbecame\u201d is crucial.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, there was only one resultant being and not two, the mortal Jesus Christ.<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert: <\/strong>Thanks, Mang Epi.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I had this previous discussion with a good bible “theolegian” of sorts (not a priest), about Jesus Christ, as both man and God. Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God. This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God. What can you say about this “scenario”, Mang Epi?<\/p>\n\n\n\n And going back to the subject, I would want to ask you Mang Epi when JC “died”, and since He is man at the same time also, where was the “flesh” when the tomb was opened? Did JC resurrect both in the flesh and in spirit? This, as doubting Thomas was asked to insert his finger in the flesh wound of JC, would prove that JC was still in the “flesh” during his resurrection.<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka:<\/strong> Can I answer this don robert?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus’ body resurrected too, or “survived” the crucifixion. Whichever term you prefer, the body IS ALIVE.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they beheld a spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do questionings arise in your heart?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here anything to eat?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:43 And he took it, and ate before them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert:<\/strong> Thanks, bro! It’s actually a question related to the “man-God” subject.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>atsaka wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Can I answer this don robert?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus’ body resurrected too, or “survived” the crucifixion. Whichever term you prefer, the body IS ALIVE.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they beheld a spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do questionings arise in your heart?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here anything to eat?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:43 And he took it, and ate before them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Well you just disprove EPI’s contention that the final product of man is spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Was the ressurected Jesus spirit, or is he have flesh and bones as well?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n What? YAHWEH can DIE?<\/p>\n\n\n\n That is absurd. Yahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When Yahweh becomes flesh, he is still Yahweh, he is still the Word. He is still God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That is the reason why Jesus forgives sin while he is on earth, why Jesus accept worships, because he is still Yahweh, God in flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And when Jesus died, it is the Flesh that died, and not Yahweh, for Yahweh cannot die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, YHWH cannot die. For this reason he had to strip or empty himself of his nature of immortality so that he could die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Your statement \u201cYahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die\u201d directly contradicts the bible and is the \u201cabsurd\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Again that word \u201cbecame\u201d which should be understood as “turned into”. What was previous is no longer what it is at present. Otherwise, don\u2019t use the word \u201cbecame\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n NO, it is is you who is talking about God ceasing to be God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n You just admit “the Word did!”<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word did what? God ceasing to be God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n that is what you are telling to us here EPI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n anyway, your theology is really faulty in many ways EPI, not only you are telling to us that God does not know everything, you are also telling to us that there are many Gods as if the Word is one count God + the Father as one count God. Which makes 2 Gods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Bible clearly says that there is only One GOD.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n If the bible says that the Word became flesh (John 1:14), that he was emptied or stripped of his God nature of immortality (Philippians 2:7) for the purpose of death (Hebrews 2:9), I believe the bible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I don’t mind if my “theology is really faulty in many ways” if it is you who is saying it Adme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I have cited the bible situation of God not knowing Abraham’s decision before Abraham actually did decide to kill Isaac and you refuse it, I won’t be surprised if you will call even the bible as faulty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Even the unity of God as one, which is to be understood as that of man and wife who are two but “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24), is strange to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Read the bible Adme, and not read into it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> don robert wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I had this previous discussion with a good bible “theolegian” of sorts (not a priest), about Jesus Christ, as both man and God. Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God. This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God. What can you say about this “scenario”, Mang Epi?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n I would like this to be clear, don, that when the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, only one being existed and not two.<\/p>\n\n\n\n “Perfect” in the sense that Jesus was sinless but was “imperfect” in the sense that he had not yet experienced sufferings. He did became “perfect” after he experienced the sufferings (Heb 2:10).<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, Jesus death reconciled man to God (Romans 5:10, 1st part) but it was Jesus’ resurrection, his “life” after death, which will save man from perishing (Romans 5:10, 2nd part).<\/p>\n\n\n\n When Jesus died man’s reconciliation was practically effected because the penalty of sin was removed. Man sort of became sinless and since God is sinless, man and God “reconciled”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n And going back to the subject, I would want to ask you Mang Epi when JC “died”, and since He is man at the same time also, where was the “flesh” when the tomb was opened? Did JC resurrect both in the flesh and in spirit? This, as doubting Thomas was asked to insert his finger in the flesh wound of JC, would prove that JC was still in the “flesh” during his resurrection.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n The flesh was turned to spirit. Jesus did not resurrect as flesh but as spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, \u201cThe first man Adam became a living being.\u201d The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But the resurrected Jesus could manifest himself as flesh in order for man to see and touch him. Otherwise, his disciples, who were at that time still not imbued with the Holy Spirit, could not believe that it was really Jesus who had died and who appeared to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n No. \u201cGod-MAN\u201d (why capitalize \u201cman\u201d and not God?) is a two-word combination introduced into the bible to suit a teaching which directly contradicts the bible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How can Jesus be 100% God when it is the very nature of being immortal which was removed in the lowering of the Word to that level in which he could die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Understanding the word \u201cbecame\u201d is crucial.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When the immortal Word became the mortal Jesus, there was only one resultant being and not two, the mortal Jesus Christ.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n What happened to the immortal word when it became Jesus. Ceased to exist?<\/p>\n\n\n\n It’s immortal! meaning it always exist?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, I believe understanding the word became is crucial, no way it means that when the Word become flesh is no longer a word. He is still the Word. As what you said, it is immortal!<\/p>\n\n\n\n NOw answer this, If Jesus is not God when he is in flesh, Why he accept worship? that is idolatry if he is not God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n WHy he forgive sins, that is blasphemy for only God can forgive sins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald:<\/strong> Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, YHWH cannot die. For this reason he had to strip or empty himself of his nature of immortality so that he could die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Your statement \u201cYahweh cannot die for he is God, even if he becomes flesh, he cannot die, for God cannot die\u201d directly contradicts the bible and is the \u201cabsurd\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Again that word \u201cbecame\u201d which should be understood as “turned into”. What was previous is no longer what it is at present. Otherwise, don\u2019t use the word \u201cbecame\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n You are telling to us “God made himself not God anymore”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That is absurd!<\/p>\n\n\n\n If God made himself not God anymore, then there is a point in time that there is no God at all. Or there are many Gods and one of this God made himself not God anymore. Which one you prefer EPI?<\/p>\n\n\n\n What I said is this, “YAHWEH becomes flesh, and it is the Flesh that die, not Yahweh for yahweh cannot die. Please don’t mispresent my position here EPI.”<\/p>\n\n\n\n The word become in JOhn 1:14 comes from the greek word ginomai which means, to become, or to pass, or to happen, to be done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It is simply telling to us that the WOrd become flesh, it does not tell you that it is no longer a Word, otherwise you are going to create a lot of absurdities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Is Jesus not The Word anymore when he become Flesh? Read 1 JOhn 1:1<\/p>\n\n\n\n We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning,whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life<\/p>\n\n\n\n See that, John testified that they have seen in there eyes, and they touched with there hands. Who?<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word of Life!<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Scripture is very clear, How could you deny that???<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I don’t mind if my “theology is really faulty in many ways” if it is you who is saying it Adme. \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n\n\n\n I have cited the bible situation of God not knowing Abraham’s decision before Abraham actually did decide to kill Isaac and you refuse it, I won’t be surprised if you will call even the bible as faulty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Even the unity of God as one, which is to be understood as that of man and wife who are two but “one flesh” (Genesis 2:24), is strange to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Read the bible Adme, and not read into it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n as if you are the only one who Read the Bible correctly. meaning the rest of Orthodox Christianity are reading the Bible wrongly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n In the other thread I replied that “God not knowing Abraham’s decision,”. I’ll wait for your answer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Unity of God is not strange to me, How often you hear me use the “man and wife analogy” in defense of the Trinity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n One Being God in 3 persons.<\/p>\n\n\n\n While what you are telling to as is that there are many God beings. Can you tell us exactly how many Gods do you believe?<\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos: <\/strong>don robert wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Thanks, Mang Epi.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I had this previous discussion with a good bible “theolegian” of sorts (not a priest), about Jesus Christ, as both man and God. Since man committed the first sin (thru Adam), the only way he can be saved is by “reconciling” himself back to God. This, as God cannot “reconcile” man on His own, as He would contradict Himself when He punished Adam and Eve (and mankind as well). Instead, God sent His Son, JC, the “perfect being” (man-God), so that man can be saved from his “mortal” sin, and likewise be “reconciled thru the spirit” with God. What can you say about this “scenario”, Mang Epi?.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Mawalang Galang na nga po sir don robert, ka ePi, sir Admeral, if may participate in your important dixcussions. Beside ka Epi’s comments, here is nother angle to ansswer the above inquiry..<\/p>\n\n\n\n Mark 10:18, \u201cAnd Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.\u201d You know what Jesus was saying there? \u201cYou\u2019re not calling me God are you?\u201d He really put this guy on the spot, right? \u201cGood Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?\u201d And Jesus says, \u201cYour not calling me God, are you?\u201d Jesus isn\u2019t denying that; He\u2019s putting the guy on the spot. He\u2019s saying \u201cWhat are you saying to me?\u201d You see, you cannot just find one verse; you know, this is what people do. You know, people proof text their ignorance incessantly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But the best thing to say to people like that is, \u201cThat verse isn\u2019t sufficient.\u201d I tell people who have a question about the deity of Jesus Christ? “If you really want to know the truth, you sit down and read the gospel of John from chapter 1 to chapter 21. Read the whole thing, and then come back and tell me that Jesus isn\u2019t God. Don\u2019t pull out a verse like that.” I mean, \u201cA wayfaring man\u201d as it says in the Old Testament \u201cthough he be a fool, need not err.\u201d There is one thing that is absolutely clear in the Scripture, and that is that Jesus is God. There\u2019s no other way to explain anything about Him. What you don\u2019t want to do when dealing with somebody like that is get tangled up in the one verse. Put the burden on them. Say \u201cOK, you\u2019ve given me your little verse, now you read the gospel of John, and come back and tell me whether that\u2019s the right conclusion or not. Or read Colossians, chapter 1.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus called on His powers of deity repeatedly to corroborate His teaching. He would teach and of course there would be the response of certain people, “Well, why should we believe this guy?” So in John 14:10 he says, \u201cBelievest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?\u201d Do you have trouble believing the I am God? \u201c \u2026the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwells in me, He doeth the works.\u201d \u201cBelieve me,\u201d or that is believe my word, literally, \u201c\u2026that I am in the Father and the Father in Me\u2026\u201d In other words believe my words about being God. Now here, “\u2026or else believe Me for the very works\u2019 sake.\u201d John 14:11. \u201c\u2026believe Me for the very works\u2019 sake.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n At the end of the Gospel of John, the 20th chapter, the 30th verse, \u201cAnd many other signs\u2026\u201d and what is a sign for? What does a sign do? Points to something, doesn\u2019t it? A sign, it tells you, you are going somewhere, it points to something . Many signs pointing to something \u201cdid Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: But these words are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.\u201d Jesus did many signs pointing to His deity. Many miracles and the Gospel of John records many of them. The Gospel of Matthew, is just loaded with them, as well as Mark and Luke. But Matthew, particularly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n In Matthew 15;29, for example, \u201cJesus departed from there and came near to the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain and sat down.\u201d \u201cAnd great multitudes came,” and of course this is a teaching setting, Jesus on a mountain in Galilee and the masses of humanity come. And they came, the \u201c\u2026 lame, the blind, the dumb, the maimed, and many other, and put them down at Jesus\u2019 feet, and He healed them.\u201d \u201cInsomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be well, the lame to walk, and the blind to see; and they glorified the God of Israel.\u201d And that\u2019s exactly what Jesus wanted them to do. He corroborated His constant teaching, His constant claims with many, many acts of deity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka: <\/strong>do you have the habit of calling people who don’t agree with you ignorant? Or do you want me to tell you again that you are a destroyer of the english language like what you just did today and like you did to the “effeminate” topic to force your beliefs?<\/p>\n\n\n\n grean villacarlos: <\/strong>Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n With the storm that visited PRMO having passed, I suppose, let’s get back to PRMO business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n With the object for bible believers to try to “synchronize” their bible understanding to “come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God” (Ephesians 4:13), let’s discuss Christ’s death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n My understanding is that when the Jesus Christ of the bible died, he really was dead and unconscious until the Father raised him back to life from the state of being dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Non-bible believers are, as always, welcome to also comment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hey Guys,<\/p>\n\n\n\n Its nice to see you again. So far in five pages of this discussion, I find no clear stand yet based on what’s Epi (TS) trying to emphasized.<\/p>\n\n\n\n As a catholic, part of our “apostles creed” says; He DESCENDED INTO HELL; THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD; The person who composed the Apostles Creed basing the word “DESCENDED INTO HELL” from 1 Peter 3:18-19 “18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison”:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The word HELL in the Bible has different meanings. “Because you will not leave my soul in hell; nor you will give Your holy one to see corruption.” Psalms. 16:10<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hell – a state for righteous souls in the Old Testament. ” And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning. And whilst he continued weeping, Into hell… Gen. 37:35 Bible scholars interpret the word Hell in the old testament as a state of righteous souls waiting for salvation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And is different from the Hell Jesus was talking about. And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: 47 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.<\/p>\n\n\n\n To those who believed that Jesus did not exist. No problem for me. To those who did not believed that Jesus died physically and resurrected after 3 days… Still no Problem with me. For me, we just here to share what we believed, there’s no need to refute each one belief. Even the unbeliever has faith on their deepest. That’s why they keep telling us God did not exist.<\/p>\n\n\n\n boxing_the_no1_sport: <\/strong>He was crucified, died and was buried<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka: <\/strong>Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Well you just disprove EPI’s contention that the final product of man is spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Was the ressurected Jesus spirit, or is he have flesh and bones as well?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n How can you make such a wild conclusion using those verses? It doesn’t follow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald:<\/strong> You just quoted it, clear and straightforward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having<\/p>\n\n\n\n the spirit does not have flesh and bones, yet Jesus has them. So his disciples can see and hold them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Can you hold the Spirit? No!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Why?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Because it do not have flesh and bone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But Jesus has it, so you can hold Him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Here is a good translation:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Look at my hands. Look at my feet. You can see that it\u2019s really me. Touch me and make sure that I am not a ghost, because ghosts don\u2019t have bodies, as you see that I do.\u201d NLT<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka:<\/strong> You said: Well you just disprove EPI’s contention that the final product of man is spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It doesn\u2019t follow that if Jesus resurrected with a body, mankind will too. Maybe you should use another verse.<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN: <\/strong>Hi Tony.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>I’ll asked EPI to clarify this one to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EPI’s theology is based on the teachings of HW ARMSTRONG, whom EPI consider as the best theologian in our time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n In Armstrong teachings, they believe that the final product man is a spirit being, and Jesus Christ was raised as spirit being, without flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And we will be like Jesus, spirit beings with out flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n If you follow our discussion with EPI, he believe that the human Jesus is not God for he have flesh. So in order for Jesus to be God again, the flesh must be remove from Him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n WHich is contradictory to the teachings of the Scripture, which states that the resurected Jesus have flesh and bones. and we too will have this kind of body. and Paul describe it in 1 Cor 15, as spiritual body. A new body that cannot be curropted.<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka:<\/strong> Well its just logical that the HUMAN Jesus is not God simply because he has flesh. God is supposed to be a spirit remember? A human dies remember?<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN:<\/strong> Besides, Jesus did not say he is God, right? Tony?<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka: <\/strong>CW wag sumingit!! Masisira ang diskarte!! We are talking about the HUMAN Jesus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN: <\/strong>I have no reason to change handle, I’m not CW. Aminin mo nang ikaw si Tony.<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN: <\/strong>atsaka wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Can I answer this don robert?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus’ body resurrected too, or “survived” the crucifixion. Whichever term you prefer, the body IS ALIVE.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they beheld a spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do questionings arise in your heart?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here anything to eat?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luk 24:43 And he took it, and ate before them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n This proves the teaching of Quran that Jesus did not really die. Right, Tony?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald:<\/strong> atsaka wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Well its just logical that the HUMAN Jesus is not God simply because he has flesh. God is supposed to be a spirit remember? A human dies remember?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes God is Spirit. But the Question is “was there a limitation in God’s part to enter to his own Creation”? No.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That is why the Word become flesh, Yahweh become flesh, God become flesh. He enters to his own creation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The next question is this, When God becomes flesh, does He ceased to be God? No.<\/p>\n\n\n\n For God cannot make himself not God anymore. Or else you are telling to us that God ceased to exist in a while, or he dies in a while.<\/p>\n\n\n\n God cannot die, he must always exist. That is why we Believe Jesus is both man and God at the same time. For His divinity cannot die, it must always exist.<\/p>\n\n\n\n that is why Jesus accept worship, forgive sins while he in Flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Because he have the authority to do so, authority that only God can have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n What happened to the immortal word when it became Jesus. Ceased to exist?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Not “ceased to exist”. The bible is clear and don’t add to it. The Word became flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 1:14 And the Word became flesh…<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n It’s immortal! meaning it always exist?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Is God powerless to make the immortal Word become the mortal Jesus? Well, God is powerful that he stripped or emptied the immortal Word with his immortal nature so that he could die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Philippians 2:(Darby Translation) 6who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God;<\/p>\n\n\n\n 7but emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men;<\/p>\n\n\n\n 8and having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and [that the] death of [the] cross.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, I believe understanding the word became is crucial, no way it means that when the Word become flesh is no longer a word. He is still the Word. As what you said, it is immortal!<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n When the immortal Word became flesh by the all powerful God’s doing, the Word became mortal flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Don’t you think God had that power to change the Word”s nature from immortal to mortal and back to immortal at Christ’s resurrection?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n NOw answer this, If Jesus is not God when he is in flesh, Why he accept worship? that is idolatry if he is not God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n WHy he forgive sins, that is blasphemy for only God can forgive sins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n The mortal Jesus accepted worship and forgave sins since he was given “all authority” by God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, \u201cAll authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n You are telling to us “God made himself not God anymore”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That is absurd!<\/p>\n\n\n\n If God made himself not God anymore, then there is a point in time that there is no God at all. Or there are many Gods and one of this God made himself not God anymore. Which one you prefer EPI?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Back to basics Adme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Two beings, not three, are mentioned in these verses each of whom are called “God”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n If you say that the Father is the same being as Jesus Christ, then Jesus was making a fool of the bible readers when he prayed to God while on earth. When Jesus died, then the Father should have also died together with Jesus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n This belief simply says that you don’t believe that Christ died which belief is “of first importance” lest your belief would be in vain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians (NIV) 15:1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died…<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n What I said is this, “YAHWEH becomes flesh, and it is the Flesh that die, not Yahweh for yahweh cannot die. Please don’t mispresent my position here EPI.”<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n I am not interpreting your position Adme so there could be no way for me to misinterpret it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word became flesh. Don’t add to it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The word become in JOhn 1:14 comes from the greek word ginomai which means, to become, or to pass, or to happen, to be done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It is simply telling to us that the WOrd become flesh, it does not tell you that it is no longer a Word, otherwise you are going to create a lot of absurdities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Is Jesus not The Word anymore when he become Flesh? Read 1 JOhn 1:1<\/p>\n\n\n\n We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning,whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life<\/p>\n\n\n\n See that, John testified that they have seen in there eyes, and they touched with there hands. Who?<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word of Life!<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Scripture is very clear, How could you deny that???<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Word did not cease to exist when he became flesh. That is very clear. What was changed was his nature of being not subject to death to that which was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n as if you are the only one who Read the Bible correctly. meaning the rest of Orthodox Christianity are reading the Bible wrongly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n If they insist on the immortality of the soul and man’s going to heaven, etc., I stand by my position that they and you are reading pre-conceived ideas into the bible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n In the other thread I replied that “God not knowing Abraham’s decision,”. I’ll wait for your answer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n I haven’t read it yet. Which “other thread” was that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Unity of God is not strange to me, How often you hear me use the “man and wife analogy” in defense of the Trinity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n One Being God in 3 persons.<\/p>\n\n\n\n While what you are telling to as is that there are many God beings. Can you tell us exactly how many Gods do you believe?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n We differ in trinity because I don’t believe it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I believe the bible. John 1:1 identifies two beings called God composing God (Genesis 1:1, 26).<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Genesis 1:26 Then God (Elohim) said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka: <\/strong>YAKMAN wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I have no reason to change handle, I’m not CW. Aminin mo nang ikaw si Tony.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Eh kung ako nga si Tony, what satisfaction can it give you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN: <\/strong>Syempre ayaw kong mawala si Tony. I’m glad that you’re back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n atsaka: <\/strong>I’m not him. I’m a gurl.<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN: <\/strong>Nice to meet you Tonya.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>Admerald wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I’ll asked EPI to clarify this one to you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EPI’s theology is based on the teachings of HW ARMSTRONG, whom EPI consider as the best theologian in our time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n In Armstrong teachings, they believe that the final product man is a spirit being, and Jesus Christ was raised as spirit being, without flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And we will be like Jesus, spirit beings with out flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n If you follow our discussion with EPI, he believe that the human Jesus is not God for he have flesh. So in order for Jesus to be God again, the flesh must be remove from Him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n WHich is contradictory to the teachings of the Scripture, which states that the resurected Jesus have flesh and bones. and we too will have this kind of body. and Paul describe it in 1 Cor 15, as spiritual body. A new body that cannot be curropted.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Not contrary to scripture but contrary to your beliefs Adme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n To understand Luke 24:37-43 as quoted by atsaka, one should consider the situation of the disciples at that time when the Holy Spirit has not been given them yet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Not having the Holy Spirit to guide them in their belief in Jesus, the disciples who saw Jesus walking on water thought they were seeing a ghost. Jesus had to assure them it was he.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Matthew 14:25 Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. 26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, \u201cIt is a ghost!\u201d And they cried out for fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, \u201cBe of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n When Jesus died and was resurrected, the disciples did not also believe that he has been resurrected as they did not know yet “the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So the spirit Jesus, who could not be seen by the human eye, had to manifest himself as flesh and bones for the disciples to believe that it was indeed he the Jesus who had risen from the dead. But when he appeared to them, the disciples again thought he was a spirit (ghost) as before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, \u201cPeace to you.\u201d 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus had to identify himself to them talking to them in their level who have not yet been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:38 And He said to them, \u201cWhy are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.\u201d 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But while they were joyful and marveled at the occurrence, still the disciples could not believe they were seeing and touching Jesus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled…<\/p>\n\n\n\n So Jesus had to still show proof he was Jesus by eating in their presence as has been their practice before Jesus’ death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, \u201cHave you any food here?\u201d 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The resurrected Jesus, the last Adam, became a life giving spirit who has the power to manifest as flesh and bones and could eat if he wants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, \u201cThe first man Adam became a living being.\u201d The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Before he became the human Jesus, the being YHWH had manifested himself in the form of a man showing himself to Joshua as “the Commander of the LORD\u2019s army”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, \u201cAre You for us or for our adversaries?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n 14 So He said, \u201cNo, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, \u201cWhat does my Lord say to His servant?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n 15 Then the Commander of the LORD\u2019s army said to Joshua, \u201cTake your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.\u201d And Joshua did so.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The being was not merely an angel for an angel, who is a man’s fellow servant of God, would not accept worship.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, \u201cSee that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN: <\/strong>Jesus did not become a spirit after the resurrection as he clearly said that spirit hath no flesh and bones that he have. Ayon sa Panginoon mismo, ang espiritu ay walang laman at buto samantalng sya ay mayroon. Napakaliwanag na sinsabi ng Panginoon na hindi sya espiritu sapagkat sya ay may laman at may buto. Huwag nating dagdagan ng mga dahilang ginawa lang natin at wala naman sa biblia para lang baguhin ang sinabi na ng Panginoon. Don’t read from the bible what is not there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> grean villacarlos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hey Guys,<\/p>\n\n\n\n Its nice to see you again. So far in five pages of this discussion, I find no clear stand yet based on what’s Epi (TS) trying to emphasized.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Let me state my “stand” to you grean and to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Before he became Jesus, the Word or YHWH was not subject to death. When the Word became Jesus, he was subject to death and he did die. When he was raised from the dead, death no longer had power over Jesus who reacquired that previous nature of his who is not subject to death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Since the spirit YHWH or Word was turned into a mortal human, God had to fill him with the Holy Spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit<\/p>\n\n\n\n God would not have filled Jesus with the Holy Spirit if there was already a spirit, YHWH or Word, in him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The human Jesus was not just the flesh and blood whose spirit in the man was the YHWH or the Word that when he died, only the flesh and blood died and the YHWH or Word in him went somewhere else during his “death”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n To believe this erroneous teaching is to believe that Jesus Christ did not really die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> YAKMAN wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus did not become a spirit after the resurrection as he clearly said that spirit hath no flesh and bones that he have. Ayon sa Panginoon mismo, ang espiritu ay walang laman at buto samantalng sya ay mayroon. Napakaliwanag na sinsabi ng Panginoon na hindi sya espiritu sapagkat sya ay may laman at may buto. Huwag nating dagdagan ng mga dahilang ginawa lang natin at wala naman sa biblia para lang baguhin ang sinabi na ng Panginoon. Don’t read from the bible what is not there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh, it’s there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, \u201cThe first man Adam became a living being.\u201d The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n JSee my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus was talking to the still unconverted and Holy Spirit bare disciples who did not know the scripture that Jesus was to rise from the dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Anyway, I’ve explained enough.<\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN:<\/strong> Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh, it’s there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, \u201cThe first man Adam became a living being.\u201d The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Christ is a spirit just like men has spirit. The point is Christ retained his physical body after the resurrection. Remember that he gave up his spirit when he died that’s why his body became lifeless but after the resurrection his spirit returned to his physical body.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus was talking to the still unconverted and Holy Spirit bare disciples who did not know the scripture that Jesus was to rise from the dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Anyway, I’ve explained enough.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Whether the disciples know it or not, the definiton of a spirit remains the same, without flesh and bones. Jesus told his disciples that he is not a spirit because he has flesh and bones that a spirit doesn’t have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA: <\/strong>I’ve explained enough. Just reread my previous post if you care.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n YAKMAN:<\/strong> Christ has already given us the definition of spirit and that definition does not fit his resurrected body. Any explanation against it is useless unless we know better than him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> It\u2019s alright with me if you don\u2019t reread my post.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Admerald: <\/strong>YAKMAN wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus did not become a spirit after the resurrection as he clearly said that spirit hath no flesh and bones that he have. Ayon sa Panginoon mismo, ang espiritu ay walang laman at buto samantalng sya ay mayroon. Napakaliwanag na sinsabi ng Panginoon na hindi sya espiritu sapagkat sya ay may laman at may buto. Huwag nating dagdagan ng mga dahilang ginawa lang natin at wala naman sa biblia para lang baguhin ang sinabi na ng Panginoon. Don’t read from the bible what is not there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n kaya nga eh, napakaliwanaga ang sabi sa text. tapos sisingitan ng kung ano anong idea maisingit lang ang turo ng simbahan ni EPI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Tapos ang lakas ng loob na sasabihing sila ang biblical.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EPI, let us do this. let us both pray, that God have mercy on us, and he will open our eyes to His truth, to draw us to His Son.<\/p>\n\n\n\n at this point of time, I’m convinced that it is only God who can change the man’s heart, not our decision but God’s choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Adme, pray to be given understanding on the difference between a person who has no Holy Spirit in him and another who has. It is the Holy Spirit which leads one to understanding. In fact pray to have it or, if you already have it, that you be given more of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elisha asked Elijah’s help for him to have a double portion of the spirit Elijah had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 2 Kings 2:9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, \u201cAsk! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?\u201d Elisha said, \u201cPlease let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus’ disciples received the Holy Spirit only beginning at Pentecost (Acts 2) for which lack during Christ’s resurrection, Jesus had to adjust to their level in communicating with them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert: <\/strong>Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Not contrary to scripture but contrary to your beliefs Adme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n To understand Luke 24:37-43 as quoted by atsaka, one should consider the situation of the disciples at that time when the Holy Spirit has not been given them yet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Not having the Holy Spirit to guide them in their belief in Jesus, the disciples who saw Jesus walking on water thought they were seeing a ghost. Jesus had to assure them it was he.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Matthew 14:25 Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. 26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, \u201cIt is a ghost!\u201d And they cried out for fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, \u201cBe of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n When Jesus died and was resurrected, the disciples did not also believe that he has been resurrected as they did not know yet “the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n John 20:8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So the spirit Jesus, who could not be seen by the human eye, had to manifest himself as flesh and bones for the disciples to believe that it was indeed he the Jesus who had risen from the dead. But when he appeared to them, the disciples again thought he was a spirit (ghost) as before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, \u201cPeace to you.\u201d 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus had to identify himself to them talking to them in their level who have not yet been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:38 And He said to them, \u201cWhy are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.\u201d 40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But while they were joyful and marveled at the occurrence, still the disciples could not believe they were seeing and touching Jesus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled…<\/p>\n\n\n\n So Jesus had to still show proof he was Jesus by eating in their presence as has been their practice before Jesus’ death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Luke 24:41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, \u201cHave you any food here?\u201d 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The resurrected Jesus, the last Adam, became a life giving spirit who has the power to manifest as flesh and bones and could eat if he wants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, \u201cThe first man Adam became a living being.\u201d The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Before he became the human Jesus, the being YHWH had manifested himself in the form of a man showing himself to Joshua as “the Commander of the LORD\u2019s army”.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, \u201cAre You for us or for our adversaries?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n 14 So He said, \u201cNo, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, \u201cWhat does my Lord say to His servant?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n 15 Then the Commander of the LORD\u2019s army said to Joshua, \u201cTake your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.\u201d And Joshua did so.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The being was not merely an angel for an angel, who is a man’s fellow servant of God, would not accept worship.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, \u201cSee that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n You are one cool customer, Mang Epi, even amidst the “hostile” responses.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I don’t fully subscribe to your “idea” Mang Epi, but I am “enlightened” on how you explained yourself, knitting your way thru different verses to support your “idea”. That should be the lawyer in you, at work!<\/p>\n\n\n\n I find reason with Mang Adme’s stance on the “flesh” part of the argument, in the same way I do with your “spirit” as the final product. But it doesn’t mean Jesus is only one or the other, and not capable of being both at the same time. IMO, I believe the scriptures say Jesus resurrected in body. The “resurrected” Jesus, being God, can choose to manifest Himself as Spirit and\/or in body, anyway He wants to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n On to another question, Mang Epi. Can a soul or spirit die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n duncan mCcloud: <\/strong>NO…i will ask you is christ a god…<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Before he became flesh and after his resurrection, Christ was and is God. He was human when he became flesh (John 1:14).<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> don robert wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n You are one cool customer, Mang Epi, even amidst the “hostile” responses. \ud83d\ude00<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Nothing personal in exchanges of ideas don. Besides, one should live his belief and not merely mouth it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I don’t fully subscribe to your “idea” Mang Epi, but I am “enlightened” on how you explained yourself, knitting your way thru different verses to support your “idea”. That should be the lawyer in you, at work!<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n So the enlightenment is just on how I explain myself and not really on what I explained. To subscribe to the idea heard surely is another matter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I disagree that it is “the lawyer in” me which enables me “knit” my way through “different verses to support” the “idea”. I ascribe it to understanding the subject.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n I find reason with Mang Adme’s stance on the “flesh” part of the argument, in the same way I do with your “spirit” as the final product. But it doesn’t mean Jesus is only one or the other, and not capable of being both at the same time. IMO, I believe the scriptures say Jesus resurrected in body. The “resurrected” Jesus, being God, can choose to manifest Himself as Spirit and\/or in body, anyway He wants to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n The scripture does not “say Jesus resurrected in body”. It says the opposite – spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, \u201cThe first man Adam became a living being.\u201d The last Adam (Jesus Christ) became a life-giving spirit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n As spirit, one can manifest into a human body form. The OT is replete with angels manifesting as humans and seen by the people to whom they were sent to by God. YHWH manifested himself as the Commander of the LORD’s army to Joshua. Etc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That the resurrected Jesus showed his body to be touched by the still unconverted disciples was for them to recognize him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n don robert wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n On to another question, Mang Epi. Can a soul or spirit die?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n I don’t agree with “soul or spirit”. These are two different matters.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The soul can die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Son of man can destroy the soul.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The spirit which refers to the spirit in man, is his breath and not being a separate living being, it does not die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The spirit which refers to angels, seraphim, cherubim or God, does not die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos: <\/strong>Epifanio M. Almeda wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Before he became flesh and after his resurrection, Christ was and is God. He was human when. he became flesh (John 1:14)<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/p>\n\n\n\n Sir Epi correct me if I am wrong in understanding your inputs above.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When Jesus Christ became flesh He was only a human being and lost temporarily His essence as God during that historical time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Is this a right understanding of mine, a correct interpretation of your comments above?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> Yes, you are right sir Jim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Jesus was stripped or had emptied himself of that God nature reducing his level to lower than that of angels which is his being subject to death (Philippians 2:6-7). Death is powerless over a God being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos:<\/strong> 1.Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 2. I am still wondering the concept of God being eternal and then suddenly becomes temporary. It is too much a contradictory terms. Is it not over extending the reading? Can eternal be temporary? There is an obvious tension there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 3. Is not the right approach should be, we just let it remain that Jesus is God-Man one whole person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 4 And simply accept that God did not give us the ability to grasp it and just believe it that Jesus as one whole person. Not separating his God essence and the human characteristics?<\/p>\n\n\n\n 5. So it will remain a mystery and majestic as well because in order to be God, God must be mysterious and majestic as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 6. Beside Jesus has still have His Spirit after His physical death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 7. And death means separation from God and Jesus was literally separated from God from that moment in time, when God the Father has forsaken Him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Matthew 27:46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”\u2014which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”<\/p>\n\n\n\n Mark 15:34.”And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”\u2014which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”<\/p>\n\n\n\n What do you think?<\/p>\n\n\n\n EMA:<\/strong> jaime p ramos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 1.Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n 2. I am still wondering the concept of God being eternal and then suddenly becomes temporary. It is too much a contradictory terms. Is it not over extending the reading? Can eternal be temporary? There is an obvious tension there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Why ask those questions Jim when clearly the bible states that a God being was lowered to the level below that of angels?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;<\/p>\n\n\n\n That this change required the shedding or stripping or emptying of that God nature which cannot die so that he could die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death…<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 3. Is not the right approach should be, we just let it remain that Jesus is God-Man one whole person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n I don’t believe this “God-Man” concept. It is either God or man. When the bible states that the spirit Word “became” flesh, it simply means that the being who was spirit ceased to be spirit and became flesh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 4 And simply accept that God did not give us the ability to grasp it and just believe it that Jesus as one whole person. Not separating his God essence and the human characteristics?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n His God essence of being immortal was removed. Why insist it was still there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 5. So it will remain a mystery and majestic as well because in order to be God, God must be mysterious and majestic as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Mystery to the many is revealed to some. What was revealed to Paul he is sharing to believers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ephesians 3:3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 6. Beside Jesus has still have His Spirit after His physical death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Any bible verse to support this line Jim?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n 7. And death means separation from God and Jesus was literally separated from God from that moment in time, when God the Father has forsaken Him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n I’m seeing how far your understanding on “death” have changed. You no longer believe that death is cessation of life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n jaime p ramos wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Matthew 27:46. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”\u2014which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”<\/p>\n\n\n\n Mark 15:34.”And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”\u2014which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”<\/p>\n\n\n\n What do you think?<\/p>\n\n\n\n ————————————–<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nPhilippians 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and<\/em> coming in the likeness of men. (New King James Version)<\/h5>\n\n\n\n
Philippians 2:6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained. 7But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. (Amplified Bible)<\/h5>\n\n\n\n
Philippians 2:6 who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; 7but emptied himself, taking a bondman’s form, taking his place in [the] likeness of men. (Darby Translation)<\/h5>\n\n\n\n
Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit…<\/p>\n\n\n\n
1. “He was put to death in the flesh”; and
2. “but made alive by the Spirit\u201d
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
2. New Living Translation – “He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
3. Amplified Bible – “In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit”<\/p>\n\n\n\n